Alternative to the 20 second WoG

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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Lightstrike » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:11 pm

Hmm, I'm unable to find that effect in the talent tree, however it isn't really the angle I was getting at.

I was referring to the sudden shift where holypower starts off being one of our most valuable resources being used for initial threat-building, and then once we have the threat lead its usefulness seems to drop off sharply towards where it is just used on whatever seems like the least wasteful. My thought was that if Blizzard don't want prot/ret paladins to be healing others so much, then it seems to leave prot with a gap every other WoG to used holypower on ShoR or Inquisition, if we have a major threat lead it seems like a bit of a waste, which is why I asked about a sacred shield making a comeback as a prot only thing to spend holy power on. The main problem I see would be balancing any kind of absorbing bubble against WoG so it isn't doesn't just replace WoG completely, and would be used while it's on cd.
Who knows, at this stage I'm still out of the loop so I could be talking complete crap :)



Edit to include strikethrough
Last edited by Lightstrike on Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby yappo » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:09 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:At higher levels there is a talent that converts any WoG overhealing (on self only) into a bubble, at a 100% rate. But most of the time if you are at or near 100% health and not expecting a big boss attack, you are probably using that WoPo for a ShotR rather than a WoG. I don't believe this talent is currently all that popular since it is rarely used, but it is available, in the 4th talent tier I think.


While I'm trying to change my tanking into using more ShotR, not because I need the threat, but because I don't want to get too accustomed to future bad habits, there are some fights on progression where I simply spam my WoG:ing **** flat out.

That shield makes a three HoPo WoG at full health a non-waste as it temporarily gives me an extra 25k average, temporary, health-buffer. Add gimmick crap like Chimaeron double strike (where we finally got our brains assembled and swapped in the warrior tank to eat them instead of me), and a 25k shield comes in very handy. Or Halfus when we downed it despite of our tanking performance rather than because of it.

If the suggested change goes live without any other change at all, then EG in tier 1 becomes hysterically iffy, even if it turns out that it averages better threat over time than SotP. I couldn't care less about threat over time. I care about guaranteed threat during the first 30 seconds of the fight.

While GbtL (the rank 5, not 4, talent you refer to) is likely to stay mandatory (if for no other reason than to make sure Holy Shield doesn't fall off after a WoG) I REALLY dislike spending two (because a potential shield once per, theoretically, 21 seconds is still better than even more threat) talent points on an ability I can realistically use no more often than twice per minute.

All that said, the current WoG-spamming is too good. While I have iffy progression, it still has allowed us to down content while cheating a bit on mechanics, and I firmly believe that is not as it ought to be.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:17 pm

I wonder what low level prot pallies are going to do? Given that its pretty much guaranteed that WoG is going to get the 20sec cooldown.
From Level 9 to 29 WoG is the only thing they have :(

I was thinking, why not introduce a (small) mitigation ability into SoR?
After all, it IS called SHIELD of Righteous.

Ahh what a mess this is.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Aubade » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:27 am

masterpoobaa wrote:I wonder what low level prot pallies are going to do? Given that its pretty much guaranteed that WoG is going to get the 20sec cooldown.
From Level 9 to 29 WoG is the only thing they have :(

I was thinking, why not introduce a (small) mitigation ability into SoR?
After all, it IS called SHIELD of Righteous.

Ahh what a mess this is.


Deal with it and stop crying, just like the rest of us. (well, maybe not the latter knowing track records.)
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Leuthas » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:41 am

So a Prot Paladin will no longer be invincible below level 30, unless WoG is to be buffed, as I suspect will be the case, then Paladin's will have a 20 second CD Lay on Hands like ability at those levels.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby valura » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:35 am

This may sound quite stupid, but why can't prot pallies get an additional line in GbtL saying WoG is without CD, same like Holydins.

I already experience being outDPSed and outhealed by my (equally geared) DK co-tank, and when I kinda wonder where that will leave me... Whats the reason for not replacing me? My pretty blue eyes? I mean, they can get a warrior tank, who does more DPS, keeps threat just as well, and needs the same amount of healing (post 4.1.0)... what a dilemma :shock:

Also, considering the trade between WoG and SotR, when you heal somebody, you generate threat, and the higher on the aggro list said person is, the higher the amount of threat generated, up unto a point where I'm sure casting a 3HP WoG on myself will generate nearly as much threat as casting a 3HP SotR.

Perhaps this is something Theck can determine, since he's the master of numbers.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Aubade » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:31 am

valura wrote:I already experience being outDPSed and outhealed by my (equally geared) DK co-tank, and when I kinda wonder where that will leave me... Whats the reason for not replacing me? My pretty blue eyes? I mean, they can get a warrior tank, who does more DPS, keeps threat just as well, and needs the same amount of healing (post 4.1.0)... what a dilemma :shock:



Disclaimer: I'm an ass, get over it.

QQ more. I mean it really, it might get you somewhere.

Your guild should pick you because you are a GOOD PLAYER. Any tanking class can do almost anything. There are very very few niche roles nowadays where you NEED 1 class over another, so your guild should say "Hey, we have these tanks, which one will perform better?" not "lol dk is lol, sorry paladin." The actual differences in tank classes right now are pretty much negligent.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby valura » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:52 am

Aubade wrote:
valura wrote:I already experience being outDPSed and outhealed by my (equally geared) DK co-tank, and when I kinda wonder where that will leave me... Whats the reason for not replacing me? My pretty blue eyes? I mean, they can get a warrior tank, who does more DPS, keeps threat just as well, and needs the same amount of healing (post 4.1.0)... what a dilemma :shock:



Disclaimer: I'm an ass, get over it.

QQ more. I mean it really, it might get you somewhere.

Your guild should pick you because you are a GOOD PLAYER. Any tanking class can do almost anything. There are very very few niche roles nowadays where you NEED 1 class over another, so your guild should say "Hey, we have these tanks, which one will perform better?" not "lol dk is lol, sorry paladin." The actual differences in tank classes right now are pretty much negligent.


yes, you are :twisted:

this was not supposed to be QQ, this was me wondering where this would bring me... as for the supposed negligable difference between tanks, I'll PM you the logs so you can see that my statements are neither false nor whining, they are nothing more than me making an statement based on genuine observation...
In tribute to the original Paladin, Charles the Hammer Martel (° 688 - † 22 oct 741).
Bohica (100) BM
Kul Tiras >>> Valura (92) Prot | Hashishin (90) Combat | Arishem (90) Blood | Maurgane (90) Frost | Bova (90) Bear |
| Zannah (90) Resto | Farmingbull (79) Resto | Shoju (51) WW | Wærloga (90) Destro | Dejiko (50) Prot |
Draenor >>> Kenesha (90) Resto | Qedesha (80) Disc | Lanthlasa (52) BM | Xiaohongquan (80) WW |

Jebus what a soul crushing procession of Failures, Septic Tanks, Oxygen thieves and Utter Utter retards. - masterpooba
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:22 am

Sabindeus wrote:then relegated to necessary but gimmick status in T6/Sunwell where they trivialized Hyjal trash and certain encounters like Felmyst but couldn't tank bosses.

Absolute Rubbish.

I progression tanked Hyjal bar the last dude that needed a fear break, most of BT including our first Illidan kill and most of Sunwell, all as current content except KJ, who we got the week 3.0 dropped.

The only bosses I didn't main-tank were the ones that required a fear break or spell-reflect.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:48 am

Lieris wrote: the least avoidance, HP and mitigation.

Not true, and I proved it on Brutallus. We ran parses of me, the bear and our warrior. I had lowest incoming damage.

Block Value + Block Cap = very good mitigation.

Yes, it's only 10% off each hit... That's 10% mitigation, fools!

Number made up, I can't remember what my BV was two+ years ago

I do remember telling my GM to stick his opinion of who should be tanking (bear+warrior) up his arse the week after I showed him my DPS, TPS & damage taken numbers for Brute compared to the other tanks. He'd been having me turn up as ret to get the buff. We made a Holy paladin do it instead. That was the last time he ever tried to contradict me on tanking assignments.

Yes, some things were harder as a paladin tank. Boo Hoo. Play better.

Also:
Chicken wrote:On the other hand, the Kalecgos encounter originally had some issues with Paladin tanks because Righteous Defense was only usable on people in our party or raid... So we had no way of taunting the demon off of Kalecgos, which sucked.
There was a way round it (can't remember what) because I tanked that one as well.

Probably had a feral druid pop bear-form and taunt, then I RD'd off him, then he went back to kitty?

I think they hot-fixed that pretty early as well? By 6.5 Blizzard were finally realising that when they'd told people that the non-warrior tanking classes were real tanks, people had believed them, so they better start making it true.

Sunwell's the first instance I remember where I could tank every boss. Oh.. hang on.. and Tier 5? Can't remember anything there I couldn't tank. Some of T-5 we were grossly OP in - that robot in Tier-5 was a joke, I could solo-tank him to about 10%.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:58 am

The main trick I seem to recall from TBC gearing was to stop goddamn trying to match the warriors for health pool, you can't do it!

Get to block-cap, stay there, stack avoidance/block value. Yes, your health bar will be smaller than the warrior, but your EH will be fine because you get to add BV to every hit it your "hits to live" on Boss X, and it was typically 2-3. So you'd end up with better than Warrior survivability.

Our healers generally found me easier to heal than the warriors. Smaller hits, less frequently.

I will grant you that getting people (even here, of all places) to BELIEVE that we could main-tank was sometimes hard-fucking work.

But it's bullshit to say we couldn't do it. Because I did, somewhere in the world top 1,000.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Chicken » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:04 am

knaughty wrote:Also:
Chicken wrote:On the other hand, the Kalecgos encounter originally had some issues with Paladin tanks because Righteous Defense was only usable on people in our party or raid... So we had no way of taunting the demon off of Kalecgos, which sucked.
There was a way round it (can't remember what) because I tanked that one as well.

Probably had a feral druid pop bear-form and taunt, then I RD'd off him, then he went back to kitty?

I think they hot-fixed that pretty early as well? By 6.5 Blizzard were finally realising that when they'd told people that the non-warrior tanking classes were real tanks, people had believed them, so they better start making it true.

Sunwell's the first instance I remember where I could tank every boss. Oh.. hang on.. and Tier 5? Can't remember anything there I couldn't tank. Some of T-5 we were grossly OP in - that robot in Tier-5 was a joke, I could solo-tank him to about 10%.
They fixed that eventually yes. My guild worked around it by simply using me as the initial tank on Kalecgos; that way I was guaranteed to have another tank to taunt off of. We just kept doing that even when they fixed Righteous Defense to work on Kalecgos. Nevertheless, it sucked on the first try where I ended up being the first tank that went to the demon to find out that I was entirely incapable of taunting him off of Kalecgos.

I also personally tanked pretty much anything: I didn't really spec healing often until SWP though but that had a different reason; our official system for figuring out who tanked what on earlier content was simply based on /roll results. We essentially started running out of Paladins around that time (We used to have 4 of them, but the others got bored and quit throughout the BT farming era), and while I worked well enough as a tank, our main tank healing suffered from having completely no Paladin healers. Dual-spec was a godsend in that regard once it hit in WotLK, I usually ended up respeccing four times for each SWP clear which is quite annoying; Prot for Kalecgos, Holy for Brutallus, Prot for Felmyst and Twins trash, Holy for Twins, Prot for the rest of the instance.

Technically I wasn't a full time tank on Kil'jaeden either. We just made good use of the fact that I had an easy time picking up the copies he spawned of a random raid member, and that I could fill in the rest of the time doing the various dragon duties.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:12 am

Chicken wrote: My guild worked around it by simply using me as the initial tank on Kalecgos; that way I was guaranteed to have another tank to taunt off of.

Bing!

That's what we did as well, well except one time to learn it the hard way....
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:17 am

Chicken wrote:respeccing four times for each SWP clear which is quite annoying


For me it was back and forth between prot and ret.

Prot for Kalec, Ret for Brute until I finally bent the GM to my will, and even then, often Ret because we were short Holy Paladins to make go ret, then back to prot for the rest of the instance.

We only did M'uru and KJ once.

We had M'uru to ... 20%? before 3.0 - would have got him in another week or so. I was tanking ... voidwalker-thingies inside M'uru's room.

Killed M'uru and KJ once each the week 3.0 shipped and then took a break.

Wrath I tanked everything except Iron Council hard-mode (lack of a second cooldown was crippling).

By the time dual-spec came in, it was most useful to allow me prot/prot...
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:27 am

valura wrote:I mean, they can get a warrior tank, who does more DPS, keeps threat just as well, and needs the same amount of healing (post 4.1.0)

I'm fairly sure that part of the disparity in DPS numbers is due to Tankadins primarily using WoG instead of SotR...
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