Remove Advertisements

[Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: [Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Postby tlitp » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:20 pm

Chicken wrote:Technically Slice and Dice isn't entirely linear.
(...)
Anyway, their linear scaling is countered in design through rogues being resource limited, and all their finishers consume both their primary resource (energy) and secondary resource (combo points), so anything used with a higher amount of combo points is more primary resource efficient. Which encourages rogues to usually use their abilities with a high amount of combo points.

I. The existence of a non-zero offset doesn't make the scaling of SnD less linear. :P
II. First of all, let's graciously ignore any deviations from ideality (time-to-die, time-on-target) in order to keep things simple. Even in quasi-ideal situations, 5-CP finishers are not necessarily optimal (some basic examples : I, II; while there are some subtleties that are not addressed, it's a good rundown of the current CPG/finisher mechanics); focusing on resource management alone leaves room for oversights (pooling, higher-order interactions).
Should max-HoPow finishers be close to optimality ? Absolutely, because normal people shouldn't get overly penalized. Should there be an overhead, allowing the enthusiasts to pull ahead by that extra bit ? It'd be fairly reasonable, methinks.
User avatar
tlitp
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: [Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:35 pm

SnD is linear, it just has an elvated starting point

if you started with 1 cp being 0sec, it would still be a linear scale of 3 sec/cp
all that is happening is you are adding a 9sec baseline
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 7350
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: [Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Postby Chicken » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:37 pm

tlitp wrote:
Chicken wrote:Technically Slice and Dice isn't entirely linear.
(...)
Anyway, their linear scaling is countered in design through rogues being resource limited, and all their finishers consume both their primary resource (energy) and secondary resource (combo points), so anything used with a higher amount of combo points is more primary resource efficient. Which encourages rogues to usually use their abilities with a high amount of combo points.

I. The existence of a non-zero offset doesn't make the scaling of SnD less linear. :P
II. First of all, let's graciously ignore any deviations from ideality (time-to-die, time-on-target) in order to keep things simple. Even in quasi-ideal situations, 5-CP finishers are not necessarily optimal (some basic examples : I, II; while there are some subtleties that are not addressed, it's a good rundown of the current CPG/finisher mechanics); focusing on resource management alone leaves room for oversights (pooling, higher-order interactions).
Should max-HoPow finishers be close to optimality ? Absolutely, because normal people shouldn't get overly penalized. Should there be an overhead, allowing the enthusiasts to pull ahead by that extra bit ? It'd be fairly reasonable, methinks.
That was an interesting read, thank you.

One thing that springs out to me from reading both of those however is that when compared to Rogues, Paladins don't currently have as many opportunities to make use of such overhead for enthusiasts to pull ahead by using less than 3-point finishers if we were to leave the system as is beyond changing the HP abilities to all scale linearly. There are some opportunities for extra optimal play already: Avenging Wrath would be best used when you have 3 Holy Power already, and Sacred Duty encourages you to have at least J and AS on cooldown before deciding to use ShoR. There is Holy Shield as well technically, though its current duration is long enough that past initially getting it up it isn't something to worry about for the most part; Linear scaling on ShoR would definitely benefit using a 1 HP ShoR as soon as possible to get Holy Shield up though, since that's a smaller threat loss in the part of the fight where threat still matters.

So I'd expect that for such small optimizations to start coming into play for a Paladin, we'd need changes to the current system that allow these optimizations to be a larger factor than they'd be now. They shouldn't be gigantic differences as you said, we definitely want performance reasonably close to the optimum from only using finishers at 3 HP. Both for the "normal players" as well as to not heavily penalize a tank who has a particularly intense role in an encounter. The new Grand Crusader will help a bit for that as well, since it makes the rate of HP generation less reliable (Though in a positive way rather than a negative way like the 4.0.6 CS change).

The question is mostly how you'd change things to allow small optimizations. Resource pooling isn't an option for Paladins unless they heavily change the class so we can basically rule that one out at least. A de(buff) you're encouraged to keep up as much as possible is probably the most realistic option; whether that be similar to Rupture or Envenom is the question then. Or both perhaps. Who knows.

Also that thing about SnD and linear scaling? Fowl play I say!
Image
User avatar
Chicken
 
Posts: 1597
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: [Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Postby knaughty » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:40 am

Just spotted this thread, and will craft a longer reply tonight when I'm not on an iPhone.

I do agree that a 4.5 sec CS allows for a better rotation, but they left tweaking the Prot rotation too late in the cata beta to allow for a proper fix. The real fix can't go into 4.1 either and I'm not sure Prot is a high enough priority for Blizzard to do the required rework.

There's also the very poor interaction between vengeance stacking delay and the 4.5 CS giving utterly appalling on-pull TPS. Obvious solution there is for Veangeance to be always on.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: [Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:04 am

knaughty wrote:Just spotted this thread, and will craft a longer reply tonight when I'm not on an iPhone.

I do agree that a 4.5 sec CS allows for a better rotation, but they left tweaking the Prot rotation too late in the cata beta to allow for a proper fix. The real fix can't go into 4.1 either and I'm not sure Prot is a high enough priority for Blizzard to do the required rework.

There's also the very poor interaction between vengeance stacking delay and the 4.5 CS giving utterly appalling on-pull TPS. Obvious solution there is for Veangeance to be always on.


I was reading through this thread and just thought the exact same problem.... Right now, with 2%/10, we have a ~20%? miss chance about 1-in-5...

For pulls lets assume just 1 misses, we go from an average of a ~12 avg wait until 3 HoPo, to an 18 second wait... so instead of generally getting 2 SotR before MD wears off, we'd get 1.
While this increases value in hit/expertise for us as tanks (which I believe a dev post wanted to do for the other non-DK tanks), it also pushes back our big threat boost waiting for vengeance to stack up...

Granted, GrCr AS will make up some of that loss, as AS hits about as hard or harder (for low hit/exp (avg)) --- and will be more usable without pushing back CS's or SotR... Perhaps that will make up some if it -- except our proc rate will be reduced from the CD increase.

I would expect to make the new rotation better/more usable as tanks:
1) Sacred Duty increased to 20-25 second duration (2 cs/hotr misses = 22.5 seconds before Finisher)
2) GrCr proc chance increased, or added to another spell, or melee attack)
3) Some scaling change (in relation to AP/Veng) that makes some abilities higher base, same max damage (or higher max damage if CS is the scaling change)
Sur-Pseudo
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: [Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Postby Alandrek » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:15 pm

We wouldn't necessarily need an additional proc to make 4.5s CS work.

Back in the beta when the 3.0s vs 4.5s CS debate was first taking place on the WoW forums, I wrote a small script to simulate a basic rotation to play with various ideas. With 4.5s CS, I found that if you reduced the cooldown on AS to 9 seconds and changed Judgment to also grant Holy Power for Prot, then a SotR > AS > CS > J > HW queue would only have 2-3 empty GCDs per minute (and never back-to-back) while still using SotR every ~ 9 seconds.

EDIT: Of course, this did assume Holy Power generation on miss/dodge/parry (since that's how it worked at the time).
Alandrek
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:16 am

Re: [Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Postby knaughty » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:58 pm

Sacred Duty is being dropped to 10 seconds... I wonder what the chance is that we'll have a 3 HoPo ShoR land in the 10 seconds following a proc?
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: [Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:37 pm

I think it's safe to say that if we're making a change as significant as returning the CS cooldown to 4.5 seconds, we can also assume that talents can be tweaked as well. A 10s SD wouldn't make sense with that sort of CS cooldown, even with HP from AS.

If you're going back to a 4.5s cooldown on CS, you'll have more gaps to fill, so the logical change to make would be to turn SD into some sort of proc that gives you another spell to cast or changes your spell priority. Any of the ones I proposed earlier in the thread would work in that regard.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7759
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: [Split] Rotation Brainstorming/Discussion

Postby Yelena » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:47 pm

knaughty wrote:Sacred Duty is being dropped to 10 seconds... I wonder what the chance is that we'll have a 3 HoPo ShoR land in the 10 seconds following a proc?

Unless Blizzard puts an ICD on the new version of SD, it is entirely possible for subsequent casts of J/AS to refresh the duration of SD, as that's the behavior of the current implementation. Also, in the context of your question; is that taking into consideration the chance of whiffing the SotR, which would eat the SD buff anyway?

theckhd wrote:the logical change to make would be to turn SD into some sort of proc that gives you another spell to cast or changes your spell priority.

Making SD a quasi-clone of The Art of War, in that it makes the next Exorcism instant cast, would probably address that well enough. Keep the triggers (J/AS), lower the proc chance to ~20-30%, and adjust the potential damage bonus of the proc sufficiently that it'd encourage pushing back CS to cast it. Considering how much mana it costs to hard cast it, follow the Art of War design and make the instant cast free. A change like that won't add a whole lot of mental bandwidth to the rotation, but it will add some variability to it, rather than essentially trying to shove so much emphasis on SotR.

The obvious counter-point would be concerns about how it would interact with Inquisition, in that it would potentially encourage Prot to use nothing but that as the finisher. A couple ways to address that would be to make Exorcism used under these conditions immune to the augmenting effect of Inquisition (likely requiring additional tech on Blizzard's part to implement), or to increase the base damage and scaling of SotR, since that ability will no longer be subject to getting free crits anyway.

As far as PvP concerns, Blizzard didn't seem to think it was necessary to give Prot the tools they gave Ret to address mobility concerns (Long Arm of the Law, self-Cleanse removing roots/snares), as such Prot is pretty much second only to Assassination Rogues in terms of ease to kite. Glyph of Dazing Shield (magic dispel, hi) doesn't even remotely compare, having additional ranged tools isn't going to suddenly tip the scales the other direction. But PvP concerns are another issue altogether.

----------------------------

The underlying point is that there are several ways Blizzard could address the rotation issues, many of which achieving more desirable results than what we have currently.
Valleri - Frostwolf
Yelena
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:54 am
Location: Behind the Eight Ball

Previous

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?