Pulls and picking up adds

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Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Dazarol » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:40 am

New tank learning the ropes (or hoping to) in Cata instances (reg and heroic).

Ran a few this morning and found that I am pretty solid on single target pulls, no issues with threat or anything.

Where I struggled was the far more common multi-target pulls, trying to hold aggro on multiple mobs, and the associated issues with CC'ed mobs.

Few noob questions for the field:

1. What's the best way to learn WHICH mobs should get CC'ed? Just experience?

2. Are there things I should know about pulling after CC? If I toss in an AS, is that sufficient? Will I break CC? Or should I be single-target pulling and then trying to grab threat on the others that follow?

2. How are other maintankadins "taunting" mobs that go astray? I use Vuhdo on my healer so I put Righteous Defense as a click cast to toss on a party member who has pulled aggro. I have Hand of Reckoning on another click cast, but that'll take some getting used to (not accustomed to targetting mobs, having spent all my time healing and targetting party members). Do people generally target stray mobs by clicking on them on screen, or in your UI? Run over and whack on them for awhile? In other words, do you focus on the screen, or on party frames, or on the Omen screen, or what?

Thanks in advance, sorry for noobness.

-Daz
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Chasey » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:21 am

Dazarol wrote:New tank learning the ropes (or hoping to) in Cata instances (reg and heroic).
Ran a few this morning and found that I am pretty solid on single target pulls, no issues with threat or anything.

Where I struggled was the far more common multi-target pulls, trying to hold aggro on multiple mobs, and the associated issues with CC'ed mobs.

Few noob questions for the field:

1. What's the best way to learn WHICH mobs should get CC'ed? Just experience?

2. Are there things I should know about pulling after CC? If I toss in an AS, is that sufficient? Will I break CC? Or should I be single-target pulling and then trying to grab threat on the others that follow?

2. How are other maintankadins "taunting" mobs that go astray? I use Vuhdo on my healer so I put Righteous Defense as a click cast to toss on a party member who has pulled aggro. I have Hand of Reckoning on another click cast, but that'll take some getting used to (not accustomed to targetting mobs, having spent all my time healing and targetting party members). Do people generally target stray mobs by clicking on them on screen, or in your UI? Run over and whack on them for awhile? In other words, do you focus on the screen, or on party frames, or on the Omen screen, or what?

Thanks in advance, sorry for noobness.

-Daz


1. CC casters, if there is a healer CC that.
2. Mark you targets! Let others know what they have to CC. Have rogues sap, hunters trap 1st. The mobs will run towards you, allow hex, bind, sheep to go off then toss shield. It shouldn't break CC. There was a bug that was breaking CC but is not now. If you have relatively decent people after a pull or two they will have CC coordination.
2.2 (did you mean 3?)If done correctly mobs should not be running astray. If they are, HotR or Holy Wrath should take care of it. If a mob is really wanting to attack a player that bad, they (that player)are doing something wrong. Every now and then after a target is CC'd the player who CC'd 1st will grab aggro, see above for what to do. As for how to taunt, I think you answered your own question, its not really complicated. Just taunt. If that mob doesn't come back to you, BoP or Salv or if won't let you do your job, let the DPS die a few times and ask them to give you more time to establish threat.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Aerron » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:06 am

Here's something that works for me, ymmv:

- I let the CC go first. And as Chasey said, Casters get priority for who to CC.

- Once the mobs are running towards us, I hit my Primary Target with a Judgement. Again, as Chasey suggested, mark your targets, even if you only mark what's getting CC'd and what your first Target is.

- Immediately after, the mobs should be far enough away from the CC that you can toss an AS and get the majority of them.

- Use HotR. Once you get up to 3 HoPo (alternatively, pop DP for 3 free) hit Inquisition and go to town. Inq really helps with AoE situations. Generally, if there are more than 2 mobs still up, I'm popping Inq every 3 HoPo.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Gaxby » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:24 am

Remember, that if a mob is CCed, your AS will not bounce to it. So you can throw your shield out immediately at a group of 5 once 2 of them have been CCed.

Example:

X mob mob mob C

Hunter trap X.
Mobs reacts.
Mage sheeps C.
Throw your (unglyphed) AS at the left mob and it'll bounce to the other 2.
Once the 3 mobs get close, do standard AoE rotation.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby econ21 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:24 am

When I use CC, I let hunter's trap pull (and rogues sap, ofc) but otherwise tend to do a stationary pull using Avenger Shield before the dps poly, hex etc. I have glyphed dazing shield, so the CCers have enough time to cast before the mobs get into the AOE zone of death. The only slight risk is that if the poly or whatever is cast very close to when I cast my shield, I may break the CC.

I used Vuhdo with Righteous defence for ICC trash and it was great in 25 mans when there was too much chaos to target raid members individually. In 5 mans, I don't use Vuhdo and tend to rely on Hand of Reckoning, with RD only as a last resort.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Dazarol » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:17 am

OK thanks guys.

A more focused question: when a boss fight requires the tank to "pick up the adds," what is the best way to do this?

Target the add/s and HoR?

Run to where they are and HW or Cons? Or whack on them to get their attention?

Or wait until they get aggro on a party member and then RD?

How do the pros do it?
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby frontallobe » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:55 am

I use tauntmaster mod. When adds pop out I snag them with a HoTR and any additional adds up i just right click the person that has aggro and it taunts w/e mobs running to them (up to three) back to me. I left click for single taunt. It's a handy mod as it shows who's gaining aggro by going gray -> yell0w -> orange ..when they are red they have aggro and I taunt back off them.

Edit: http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/tauntmaster.aspx
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Epimer » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:04 am

frontallobe wrote:I use tauntmaster mod.


TauntMaster is a hideously bad mod. It works fine for Righteous Defense, because RD was designed to be an ability which is cast on a player rather than a mob, but it's useless for single target taunts, because they don't work that way.

If you're tanking multiple mobs and a DPS pulls aggro on something other than what they're actually targetting (splash AoE damage etc) and you use TauntMaster to single target taunt off of them, nothing will happen. Because it's just a target of target taunt.

You can get the same RD behaviour with any unit frames and a click-casting mod (or just the unit frames if they have click-casting built in). There's no unit frame solution to using Hand of Reckoning intelligently.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Dazarol » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:10 am

OK thanks guys.

A more focused question: when a boss fight requires the tank to "pick up the adds," what is the best way to do this?

Target the add/s and HoR?

Run to where they are and HW or Cons? Or whack on them to get their attention?

Or wait until they get aggro on a party member and then RD?

How do the pros do it?
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby cerwillis » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:14 am

Dazarol wrote:OK thanks guys.

A more focused question: when a boss fight requires the tank to "pick up the adds," what is the best way to do this?

Target the add/s and HoR?

Run to where they are and HW or Cons? Or whack on them to get their attention?

Or wait until they get aggro on a party member and then RD?

How do the pros do it?

I would by no means call myself a pro, but when picking up large numbers of adds, my prio would generally be HotR, AS, HW, Cons. This varies when the mobs are ele, dragonkin, or evil (HW stun in consecrate) or if you can drop a cons in a place that you know that they will run through, but I think the most important thing is to make sure that you drop the hammer every 3 seconds.

Edit: Waiting until your healer gets adds and then RD is a trick that I will admit I've used in the past, but it's not exactly reliable.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Koatanga » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:12 pm

In most add situations, they will head straight for the healers. Because they all obey the same aggro rules, all of them will select the same healer (usually - there can be differences due to proximity). If you target one, you can see his target, so you know who to cast your RD on, though you really need to get the taunt in before another healer grabs aggro.

Other than that, I use ranged pulls to hit them first, so I will use AS, Judgement, and Hand of Reckoning. If I have time, I'll throw in an exorcism. When they get within range, I use Holy Wrath, then when they hit melee I start my HotR/Inq or HotR/WoG rotation depending on how hard they hit.

If they are spread apart, I try to convince them to come to me or at least meet me half way. If they are in a cluster, I move to them. Much depends on which ones will move and which ones won't. You always have to plan to move the physical mobs to the casters instead of depending on the casters to come to you. Invariably someone freezes or slows them en route and they never travel as far as you want them to.

If for example you have generic melee adds with various spawn points, where adds are A, B, and C, and healers are H, then I will drop consecrate on X, AS A, and melee B, letting A and C come to me. I may need to give C a bit of a nudge with a judgement or HoR if he's not impressed with my consecrate.

Code: Select all
A

     H
        X
B          C
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Dazarol » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:11 pm

Again, great info, thanks! Haven't been able to log into the game (and won't until at least Sunday) to test all of this stuff out, and it's killing me!

Anyway, you indirectly answered another question of mine, that being: from where do you get your information that you've lost aggro on a mob? Seems that most people would say this can be recognized by watching the actual field of play as opposed to relying on, say, Vuhdo frames to tell me.

I had a friend tell me, back in early Wrath (the last time I was doing any tanking) that I should be tabbing through all targets during the fight and watching Omen to determine which targets need to be taunted and/or which player needed a HoSalv. At the time, I remember thinking "Who the hell has time to do THAT during a pull?"

If I'm reading your responses correctly (and I'd like to think that I am), let me make sure I've got this straight: (this is, after all, the BASIC TRAINING forum, haha) All this takes place in a heroic 5-man, btw.

1. We approach a pack of mobs. I mark skull and x (kill order), and any CC. (I will go straighten myself out on types and order of CC later.)

2. CC pull, and remaining mobs come a-runnin'. I target skull, judge, then AS, then drop a cons in their path.

3. At this point, assuming the DPS have given me a few secs to build threat AND are practicing good target discipline (no one hitting anything other than skull at this point), all mobs should be headed my way, right?

4. HotR, HW, Inq, SotR etc to solidify my threat lead.

5. Assuming all this went according to plan, any mob that is NOT currently sufficently threatened by me has either a) used an ability that ignores threat and targets a random player, or b) been getting whacked by some careless DPS on the assumption that the healer will keep us all up anyway. In either case, I should RD on the player who has aggro, or HoReck on the mob that is straying. And, having done that, if they don't come back to me, it is safe to assume that some DPS are misbehaving. Which is likely the case at this stage of pug heroics.

So, once I do my initial threat-building stuff, DO I have time to tab through targets while watching Omen, or should I just focus on DPS and continuing to build/maintain threat?
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Tiluvar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:21 pm

Generally HoTR is your best best for picking up a lot of adds. If they're undead/demon/dragon/elemental (and you're glyphed) Holy Wrath first is probably better, since they'll just stand there until you can HoTR/Consecrate and nothing should ever leave you at that point.

Generally in those situations I would leave AS available in case one gets loose and goes for a caster, you can quickly taunt/AS to make sure it comes back to you, because often with just a taunt, whoever pulled threat will just pull it back before it gets back into melee range for you.

As a general rule, just try to remember that Taunt isn't REALLY going to do anything on it's own, it puts you above everyone else on threat of course, but you still need to maintain that lead, so you should always follow up a taunt with some threat, or there's a good chance it'll go to waste.

How to determine when mobs are going for other people is slightly a personal preference thing. For me personally I have unit frames (just the default ones) that show aggro on party/raid members. The best thing to do (may require some getting used to) when you see someone pull threat is first decide if it's just one mob or more than one. If you're AEing stuff and the mage pulls threat, use RD on them and keep hammering the group. If it's just two or three mobs and someone pulls threat, it's likely because they're single targeting something you're not directly attacking. The ideal thing to do would be to target that person's target (either with a UI that shows the targets of party members, or what I do is just target the person, and then assist them and Taunt whatever they're attacking. Takes some getting used to, but being able to use the assist command to select your target's target is really helpful a lot of the time.

Sorry if that was kind of wordy!
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby cerwillis » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:46 pm

Dazarol wrote:Anyway, you indirectly answered another question of mine, that being: from where do you get your information that you've lost aggro on a mob? Seems that most people would say this can be recognized by watching the actual field of play as opposed to relying on, say, Vuhdo frames to tell me.

An addon like Tidyplates, (with or without Threatplates,) makes a big difference if you run with nameplates on. That will tell you what is on you and more importantly, what ISN'T on you. The standard raid frames, or grid, etc. will glow red around a person that has aggro so that you can use RD effectively.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Aerron » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:49 pm

Couple of things. If you're particularly nervous about an AoE pull, use DP (talented) for the 3 free HoPo and start off with an Inquisition immediately. Gives you Holy Shield right away and ups your threat.

Also, I'm not sure which UI you're using, but Blizz's default will put a Red outline around the portraits of people who have aggro, and a yellow outline around people starting to get high in Aggro. Sometimes it's as easy as click RD, click their portrait, get back to work.

EDIT: and Cerwillis beat me to it :D
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Koatanga » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:06 pm

I would prefer not to have the DPS pull for me, so I don't generally CC-pull. It does depend on the pull, however. If I have a group standing in a line consisting of:

C M M C M

where C is caster and M is melee, I will CC both casters, and use a CC pull. I use my AS on the right-most because it will skip over the CCd caster and hit all three melee, causing them to come my way nicely.

If I have a group of C M M M C, I will CC the one on the right, but will pull it myself. I run to the caster on the left and tank the melee ones there with him. I effectively CC him by stunning him and interrupting casts in order to reduce incoming damage.

In that case I would start running, use AS on the left-most, judge the 2nd from the right, use holy wrath when in range, HotR now that I am at melee, and drop a consecrate provided the CCd caster is far enough away.

There are few cases where I use a CC pull because the DPS who casts the CC will get initial aggro, but that will change if the healer casts anything. As a result, you could end up taunting off the wrong person and have a bit of a chaotic pull.

As a just-starting-out tank, use all the CC you have available because it makes the DPS take time to get their CC up, giving you time to get the pull under control before they go nuts.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Vuarnet » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:30 am

Dazarol wrote:...If I'm reading your responses correctly, let me make sure I've got this straight...

5. Assuming all this went according to plan...

That's pretty much the key here...how does that famous quote go about the "best-laid plans?" Something about how they all turn to shit once all the shooting starts lol. Anyway, from my own personal experience, the biggest key to success is knowing what your abilities do and being comfortable with them. Tanking in general can often be very fluid, especially depending on what the 4, 9, or 24 other people are doing at the same time you're trying to do your job. Tankadins have quite a number of tools at our disposal to handle the various situations we're presented with when doing our job, so like I said, just make sure you're comfortable with them - even if that means just smacking a target dummy a few times to get comfortable mashing your buttons.

In my experience, knowing and being comfortable with these various abilities we have winds up being "easier" than having a set of "if x, then y" checklists to go through. The former allows you to readily adapt to whatever is thrown your way, as it is thrown your way, and requires less "mental bandwidth" to execute over the long run. The latter may give you a few "go-to" moves, but RNG and group dynamics can easily skew your plan of what to do next if it doesn't fit in nicely with what you had planned. I guess a good analogy would be like playing chess - sure there's a number of good famous "openers" and whatnot, but once you're in the thick of things you can't just rely on rote memorization. As long as you keep a few key things (generalizations?) in mind, and are able to adapt/think on your feet within reason, you should be able to adequately deal with whatever curve-balls are thrown your way.
To reiterate what others have already mentioned...
-HotR for short-range aoe threat
-AS is great for pulling/positioning casters as well as multi-target threat (when unglyphed), and also for keeping censure stacks up on targets
-Judgement is great for initial ranged threat, or keeping censure stacks up on targets, and also keeps the blue rage bar full...or at least not empty.
-HW for situational AOE stuns (if glyphed and the mobs are of the right type), or just initial AOE-"hi, I'm over here"-aggro
-And the list could easily go on, but that's just more specifically tailored to your question about pulls, adds, and AOE/multi-target tanking. Get comfortable enough with it and pretty soon you won't even be using CC on trash pulls.


Dazarol wrote:So, once I do my initial threat-building stuff, DO I have time to tab through targets while watching Omen, or should I just focus on DPS and continuing to build/maintain threat?

HotR and GC procs for multiple AS "frisbees" are a godsend for our AOE threat (so much so that I often don't even bother with consecrate anymore unless I just want to really pad my dps numbers, and don't even bother with HW unless the mobs I'm fighting can be stunned by it), so once you "establish" your threat and start building vengeance stacks it's really all up to you - i.e. you shouldn't need to be all that concerned with secondary target aggro if you're running with even marginally competent dps who target your target and/or follow kill orders. It never hurts to make sure your threat is secure on the mobs you're tanking though, so long as your primary target threat is solid (I'd say a minimum of 10% threat lead, preferably closer to 15-20%), feel free to "tab-target" or whatever. If you find you're having trouble with AOE/multi-target threat, and the issue isn't that the dps just massively out-gear you and they are actually following kill orders and such, make sure that you are in fact using HotR every 3 seconds (and in conjunction with inquisition whenever possible), nearly regardless of whatever else is going on. If you're not doing that now, give it a shot and see what happens to your AOE threat and dps - I'd imagine you'd be pleasantly surprised.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Dazarol » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:24 am

Nooby tank update, continuing this thread:

A few nights ago I had a wipefest on the first boss in heroic Throne of Tides. I'm told it wasn't my fault but I still have questions that are relevant in this thread.

So I pull the boss, whack on him, no trouble maintaining single-target threat, staying out of blue circles, blah blah.

Then the adds spawn, and all hell breaks loose.

Our strat was to CC the right caster and for me to grab aggro off of the left caster as well as the melee add in the back.

So I'm already more or less in the back of the room, keeping the boss facing away from the group. When the adds spawn, here was my thought process:

1. Target the melee add. Hit the melee add ASAP with something, whatever is available at the time, to grab threat on him. What should this be, ideally?

2. Switch target to left caster add, hit him with something, whatever is available. (What should this be? HoR? AS if it's up? Judge?) Run to caster add, hopefully pulling the melee add with me, drop a Cons and start AoE rotation on both of them.

If that strat/plan sounds right, then I guess our wipefest was due to some combination of these:

- failure of the right add to be CCed and CC not broken
- failure on my part to execute the above plan to grab adds
- DPS grabbing threat before I could, and my noobness in getting it back from them (is HoR/DR the best way to do this?)

What say ye?
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Arcand » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:27 am

If you drop Consecration where the melee add is going to show up, you can then bugger off toward the caster's spawn point and immediately hit her with Avenger's Shield to silence her. That gives you a good chunk of threat on what will be the first kill target, and gets her moving toward you.

When she reaches you, do a melee thing and judge while turning your camera around and confirm that the melee add is still trucking toward you. Then start looking for those frigging hard-to-see whirlies the boss throws out.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Talek » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:12 am

just remember, mark the person you want to kill first with a skull and the next person to kill with a X... that way your DPS isn't split which causes tanks to pull their hair out since the aggro will go to whoever attacking the target
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Talek » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:20 am

oh and for that fight... you'll want some cc'ers..

shamens for hex
mages for poly
hunters for trap
etc..

you're bound to get at least 1 cc per random roic

assign each CC to left and right before fight so they can take care of the witches when they come out
then just taunt the melee guy and start your standard rotation, threat shouldn't be an issue, then move on to the next witch, it's nice to tell your party which witch to attack next before fight "get melee then get right witch then left"

if you only have 1 cc'er then assign him/her to a side then drag the melee with you to the other witch and just AOE both down with primary focus on the melee since he hits hard.

should be fine next time... all your job is:

1. make sure melee is taunted and killed
2. interrupt lady when she DBM warns you
3. move her away from blue crap on the ground
4. take care of witches in the right order

i recommend you take a look at http://www.wowwiki.com/Crowd_control, print it out and stick it next to your computer :)
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Arcand » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:27 am

She likes to drop blue crap and then stand in it and cast Shock Blast. Have fun with that.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Flex » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:26 am

Arcand wrote:She likes to drop blue crap and then stand in it and cast Shock Blast. Have fun with that.


Blue spells on a blue environment on a blue boss. 4.1 notes about making the spells easier to see, loved.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby Arcand » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:36 am

My favorite is when the last boss in Grim Batol drops a shadow cyclone, and
I'm panning the camera all over the place and simply cannot find the damn thing.
I've gotten to where I usually mark everyone in the group on that fight, and then
if I don't see the 'eye' right away I just look for a Lucky Charm that's moving
rapidly in a straight line and follow that.
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Re: Pulls and picking up adds

Postby benebarba » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:40 am

Arcand wrote:My favorite is when the last boss in Grim Batol drops a shadow cyclone, and
I'm panning the camera all over the place and simply cannot find the damn thing.
I've gotten to where I usually mark everyone in the group on that fight, and then
if I don't see the 'eye' right away I just look for a Lucky Charm that's moving
rapidly in a straight line and follow that.


I learned fast to choose a ranged player and ask them if it is cool if I mark them so I know where to run since all I'll see is roach crotch. It has worked really well, since everyone else can follow them too (have a colorblind healer who has trouble seeing the initial circle, so literally macro'd follow so he could easily get where he needs to go :P )

Couple of comments on CC and trash/adds (mostly basic stuff, but worth repeating):
- Trust your CC'ers to re-CC (at least those that are able), or at least give them the few seconds to do it. It sucks when your shield hits a mob that was just re-sheeped.
- Be ready to start kiting if a sheep or froggie wanders too close (when I see that happen I switch to single-target abilities only as I kite until the mobs are away from the CC'd mob).
- Face the mobs you are controlling away from the group with your camera facing them. This with a unitframes setup like tidyplates makes it *much* easier to taunt, ranged attack, know when you need to truck it, etc. Basic stuff, but bears repeating.
- Make sure your party knows to run adds to you, as well. I had to remind my guildies (I blame overgearing leading to lack of caution...) that if more than 3 mobs are on someone and I am not physically at that spot, I can't help them and that they shouldn't stand there waiting to die. The gauntlet bit in Stonecore and HoO (hall of lights, IIRC?) made me have to make this really clear.
- LOS is fun. Why try to deal with a room full of spread out casters when you can deal with them in a nice 5 yard area? Once you start seeing all the nice places the devs gave us to LOS mobs, you'll see how they intended you to use it. Let folks know where you'll LOS to before you start. Dropping a consecrate that they'll have to run through is a good way to make sure you have a nice preload of aggro (especially if combining a LOS and CC pull).
benebarba
 
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