[10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

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[10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby PsiVen » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:16 am

We just killed this last night, but it looks like a lot of people still haven't started working on it and there's not too much information around, so I thought someone might find a little writeup helpful. In my estimation, this fight is now easier than Omnotron and Conclave by a significant margin and should be your target for 6/13.

You might assume that the 5-stacking debuff is like Algalon and requires a second tank, but this is still a one-tank fight... and it's kind of annoying for that one tank, because you will be sent to the twilight realm alone and the boss will still be hitting you while you search for a portal to get the hell out of there. This was the cause of many of our wipes (my death trying to find portals that spawned very far away) and has a fair amount of RNG to it, so you have to be prepared to save all cooldowns for these situations. You can use two tanks to remove this element, which would reduce your DPS on the boss but allow tanks to spend time helping to kill Twilight Sentries when they get sent down.

Valiona
Blackout, as on normal, hits for a fair amount but most of the damage it causes is due to the raid stacking up and being hit by multiple Twilight Blasts. Blackout is NOT cast during Theralion's phase, despite rumors to the contrary (I guess it used to be like that in beta). The big difference here is that instead of dispelling it, you need to heal through the 40k absorb to remove it. Practically speaking, this just means a couple of instant heals instead of a dispel. Guardian Spirit, Cauterize, etc. do not work to soak a solo Blackout [edit: UNLESS you let the Blackout completely expire without healing the target]. Blackouts occur twice during the first Valiona phase, and three times during the second Valiona phase (the third Blackout is right at the end of Dazzling Destruction). Normally, at least one Blackout will line up with the tank phasing out and he needs to be outside the pile to avoid sending them all into the Twilight Realm.

Devouring Flames is the same, though I imagine it hurts more you should still never be hit by it.

Twilight Blasts are also the same, but most people don't notice on normal mode that you can dodge these. DBM/BigWigs have options to /say or /yell Falling Blast on Me!, you want everyone to have these enabled and dodging as much damage as possible.

Dazzling Destruction covers a lot more of the room, I believe twice as much. If you are hit by this in the Twilight Realm you will take 300-400k, but topside you will only take about 30k and be sent down. Standing in two overlapping dazzlings will do both at once, hitting you for 330k+.

Theralion
Engulfing Magic now hits two targets, which means you cannot pile up your ranged and hope they move fast enough; everyone must be spread out.

Twilight Meteors need to be run in and dropped on the melee pile, since everyone is spread out. 2 people splitting a meteor can survive if they are topped off, 3 will probably survive, and 4 are safe. Ideally your melee pile consists of a tank + 2 melee, or a tank+melee+healer (the healer will need to run out with Engulfing). Meteors do not target players with Engulfing Magic, nor do they happen during Deep Breaths.

Deep Breath is the same, and like Dazzling it will gib you in the Twilight Realm but only hurt moderately and send you down if you get hit topside.

Twilight Phasing
Three things can send you down here: Dazzling Destruction (~30k damage), Deep Breath (also ~30k I believe), and the Twilight Phase effect from the tank reaching 5 stacks (~14k damage). Sending people down with the tank is the safest in terms of damage taken, but not necessarily the best way.

Being sent down with the tank applies a 2min debuff increasing damage taken in the Twilight Realm by 50%. Time spent in the Twilight Realm stacks a debuff called Twilight Zone which also significantly increases your damage taken in the Twilight Realm. Divine Shield removes all of these debuffs, including the stack-to-5 Twilight Phase. Twilight Phase debuffs are normally only removed when they reach 5 stacks (if you get hit by Dazzling with 4 stacks, you will still have 4 stacks when you emerge).

Valiona's time spent casting Devouring Flames interferes with the Twilight Phase debuff on the tank, such that you can control when the 5th stack of Twilight Phase will land. If you sprint up to Valiona and let her hit you as soon as possible, the 5-stack will land right before the Dazzling Destruction begins. If you MD pull to the middle and allow several seconds to go by before she can hit the MT, you will delay a stack of the debuff and cause it to land right before Valiona takes off at the end of Dazzling Destruction. If someone else pulls during the first few seconds (like a Treant or pet), the first stack will land on them and the 5-stack will delay all the way until Theralion fully lands and hits you.

While in the Twilight Realm, the boss remains visible and can be tanked/DPSed down there. The glowing orbs which appear topside are actually Twilight Sentries which spam Rift Blast and need to be killed as they continuously spawn, and there are two things which only appear in the Twilight: Unstable Twilight orbs which must be avoided (they hit for 40-50k, plus whatever +% damage modifiers you are stuck with) and Collapsing Twilight Portals which allow you to leave. The portals collapse when they reach about the size of the Sentry mobs, so if you see if a distant portal that doesn't look huge it will likely despawn by the time you get to it.

If you're not sending a healer down, DPS who enter the twilight will need to leave relatively quickly before they die, and possibly rotate. A subtlety rogue can survive indefinitely as long as they are careful, but you can make their job easier by sending down another DPS briefly to help clean up the first set of adds which spawn before anyone can get to them.

There are far too many instances of the word "twilight" in this encounter...
Last edited by PsiVen on Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Técaro » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:35 am

How exactly do you handle who goes into the twilight phase to kill sentries? We've sent 2 ranged down with the tank on the few tries we've had, and then plan to have another 2 DPS go in through the deep breath, but I'm not sure that's the way to go.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Belloc » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:23 am

Técaro wrote:How exactly do you handle who goes into the twilight phase to kill sentries? We've sent 2 ranged down with the tank on the few tries we've had, and then plan to have another 2 DPS go in through the deep breath, but I'm not sure that's the way to go.

That is exactly the way to go. You alternate pairs of DPS going down. Also, you want a properly specced rogue for this fight, as they can remain down their almost indefinitely. If you do not have a properly specced rogue, I suggest recruiting one, because having a rogue down there for that long will make your job up top a LOT easier.

So, if you have a rogue: Rogue + ranged goes down the first time. Rogue + another ranged goes down the second time... assuming the rogue even has to come back up. Rogue + first ranged goes down the third time.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Metherlance » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:28 am

Técaro wrote:How exactly do you handle who goes into the twilight phase to kill sentries? We've sent 2 ranged down with the tank on the few tries we've had, and then plan to have another 2 DPS go in through the deep breath, but I'm not sure that's the way to go.


We only sent one dps, in addition of the tank, there. We used hunter and warlock for it. First one to go goes from the last patch of Dazzling Destructions, and the second guy goes with the tank. We aimed so that both the dps and the tank kills at least 3 (so in total at least 6) dragonkins before coming back up.

We wiped on it many many times before by sending 2 dps with the tank. Only sending one helps with boss dps quite a bit so the fight is much shorter.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Belloc » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:24 pm

Note: This fight can easily be solo-tanked. If you're doing that, you can't allow your tank to stay down and DPS the adds.

In my experience, saving GotAK for the first time going down and AD + DP for the second (and then GotAK again for the third) allowed the tank to go down and take barely any damage, assuming they don't run into any bombs or get hit by any of the dazzlings or fires.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Darielle » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:10 am

Note: This fight can easily be solo-tanked. If you're doing that, you can't allow your tank to stay down and DPS the adds.

In my experience, saving GotAK for the first time going down and AD + DP for the second (and then GotAK again for the third) allowed the tank to go down and take barely any damage, assuming they don't run into any bombs or get hit by any of the dazzlings or fires.


Isn't that completely dependant on making sure the exit portals are near the tank when they get ported down?
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Metherlance » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:40 am

Note: This fight can easily be solo-tanked. If you're doing that, you can't allow your tank to stay down and DPS the adds.

In my experience, saving GotAK for the first time going down and AD + DP for the second (and then GotAK again for the third) allowed the tank to go down and take barely any damage, assuming they don't run into any bombs or get hit by any of the dazzlings or fires.


Oh yeah, was only thinking about 2 tank way we did it.

Darielle wrote:Isn't that completely dependant on making sure the exit portals are near the tank when they get ported down?


Making sure your healers top you before you go down and usage of cooldowns you won't have any problems even if the portals are a bit far, in any way you get that 6(?)second immunity to damage in twilight realm so you can pretty much just run through orbs to closest portal. Of course you could use DK or warrior or (kitty) druid (changing to bear) to taunt the boss for that time, the dragons don't melee that hard.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Metherlance » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:43 am

Note: This fight can easily be solo-tanked. If you're doing that, you can't allow your tank to stay down and DPS the adds.

In my experience, saving GotAK for the first time going down and AD + DP for the second (and then GotAK again for the third) allowed the tank to go down and take barely any damage, assuming they don't run into any bombs or get hit by any of the dazzlings or fires.


Oh yeah, was only thinking about 2 tank way we did it.

Darielle wrote:Isn't that completely dependant on making sure the exit portals are near the tank when they get ported down?


Making sure your healers top you before you go down and usage of cooldowns you won't have any problems even if the portals are a bit far, in any way you get that 6(?)second immunity to damage in twilight realm (meaning orbs, not boss hitting you) so you can pretty much just run through orbs to closest portal. Of course you could use DK or warrior or (kitty) druid (changing to bear) to taunt the boss for that, the dragons don't melee that hard.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Darielle » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:44 am

Making sure your healers top you before you go down and usage of cooldowns you won't have any problems even if the portals are a bit far, in any way you get that 6(?)second immunity to damage in twilight realm (meaning orbs, not boss hitting you) so you can pretty much just run through orbs to closest portal. Of course you could use DK or warrior or (kitty) druid (changing to bear) to taunt the boss for that, the dragons don't melee that hard.


If you end up actually running halfway across the room, you need the healer to be following with you so that they can get you the moment you come out etc., and the boss will be dragging along with you, which affects position for others, the melee clump etc. It seems like it would be much more controlled to simply desync the initial transition with Dazzling Destruction, have someone who goes down identify a portal and pre-drag the boss and your healers to within range of that and get out asap, although of course that could get ugly if the portal despawns.

Otherwise, you're basically asking to be put into a situation with "bad RNG" or "panic" which encourages someone to screw up or blow more mana than they need to.
Having a DPS taunt it is just asking for them to eat crits. The dragons are a far shot from Algalon dual wielding Lich Kings, but they don't have to be to truck a non-tank even with Shield Wall/SI up.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Belloc » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:48 am

We had about 6 pulls before our kill when I tanked it and the portals were always within... I'd say 30 yards. It might be a YMMV thing, but I'd say it's worth the "risk." Imo, as long as you go down with 3 holy power and a major cooldown, you'll be fine. I was always above 80% health when I came back up.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby PsiVen » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:31 pm

We used our rogue going down with the first tank drop, and our moonkin going down briefly on the last of the first set of Dazzlings (so he didn't have to dodge dazzling after going down). After the second set of Dazzling, we pull the rogue out to burn Theralion down before the second wave of Deep Breaths.

As I alluded to above, solo tanking can be a bit reliant on RNG. We had a handful of attempts where I died because I ran out of cooldowns trying to find a portal. Part of that was me not realizing that small portals will disappear before you get to them, and all of it is solved with practice at finding the big ones quickly. The key is saving CDs and being topped going in.

and the boss will be dragging along with you, which affects position for others, the melee clump etc.


Nobody else should move if at all possible, especially the melee clump. We had people stand perfectly still to end the RALARing with meteors. Healers don't have any reason to move either, as they can't help the tank. Ranged can adjust as needed or just be out of range for a few seconds.

As for DPS taunting, our DK was theoretically taunting whenever I dragged the boss far out of range and was near death. In practice this almost never happened, and taunting in less dire circumstances usually ended in his gory death.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Ilz » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:35 am

We put in about 2hrs of attempts last night and was able to get her and theralion to about 29%. What I want to ask for those without a rogue and sending 2 dps in and single tanking, how long do your dps stay inside the Twilight realm? For the most part our wipes were because of stupid mistakes like our MT with 4 stacks decided to run into melee upon application of the 5th stack or people failing Frogger. It seems that most people inside kill about 3 sentries before they exit but my melee have been killing upwards of 5-6+ if they can but exit with about 10% hp. Also it's somewhat annoying that you can port in with Engulfing magic. Overall great pool of information, thanks OP and good luck with your next boss!
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Técaro » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:57 pm

It depends on the class really. We ended up twotanking it and our prot warrior would kill 5 or more if they weren't miles apart, using enraged regen and massive victory rushes. Anything that can somewhat sustain itself will be able to stay longer. The sub rogue helps so much though, it's absolutely ridiculous.

Also: two small tips. Be very weary of where blackout goes off when you're in the twilight realm. It hurts.
Along the same line of thought, have people with engulfing magic not stand on top of blue orbs if at all possible. Engulfing magic ticks through in the twilight realm and it'll easily reach several tens of thousands in damage.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Ilz » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:57 pm

Finally got it tonight with sending 2 dps and 1 healer inside.

No rogue, so we had to rely on dps who can reset.

Basically, I had my ret paladin and another dps go in for about 15+~ stacks. Highest I got was 25 T_T

Me and that dps would leave after topping the ret up. He would then bubble to reset and stay longer. Once things look clean he would exit. Next group would consist of mage/lock/resto shaman. Same thing happens with lock and healer leaving, mage blocks, kills some more and leaving. Not a clean kill tonight but it worked! Good luck to everyone working on this!

Make sure if you are single tanking it, your tank is alert, sometimes a far portal is unavoidable so make sure you have a DPS who can taunt the dragon back to the middle.
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Re: [10] Heroic Valiona & Theralion

Postby Ezelyn » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:45 am

We will try this tonight, without rogue.
Comp :
fire mage
shadow priest
elemental shaman
Boomkin (our feral tank 2nd spec)
Retladin
Enhancement Shaman
Healadin HolyPriest RestoDrood
and a tankadin (yeah 3 paladin and 2 priest, we enjoy T11 tokens)

Plans to put :
Elemental+mage + heal in the first vague
Retladin+ Shadow + heal in the second
with the mage and the retladin staying longuer than 2 others after a reset (DS, IB)

Does it sound OK ? hope our tankadin can solotank it with his commandements :
- have 3 HP, be topped off before the 5 stacks, rotate CD GoAK/ AD+Divine
should he taunt/bubble/cancelaura the first 4 stacks ?


I'm still questionning when do you send people in the twilight ? on the last dazzling before transition valiona/tera ?
and when you've got teralion, when do you send guys ?
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