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Heroics in General

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Heroics in General

Postby Knievel » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:37 am

A couple months ago I was the geared tank that was leading a bunch of heroic runs to get my 346 gear and rep for my 359's. It was so much work explaining the fights before each boss, death marching back to the dungeon, etc. The worst part was that I was doing more dps than the dps - which says to me they were "Normal Dungeoneers" trying to gear up by hanging with the "Heroic Dungeoneers". The healers didn't seem to be much of a problem, although I found out pretty quickly (by 1st or 2nd pull) whether we would need to CC. Finally I had to take a break from Heroics for a while because it was just so much work, and they were all PUGs.

Recently I went back to the heroics, and it seems they are pretty close to WotLK style again, where now that the dps have finally geared up I just tank and spank the trash. Very rarely do I need to explain a boss fight, and there are very few wipes. I don't raid so still have ~350 gear, but heroics have become enjoyable again. I'm actually looking forward to the ZA/ZG's for something new to do - maybe I miss the work...
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:47 am

Part of the problem is the dungeon buff. Adding 15% to everyone's stats has done quite a bit.

Personally, I think it sucks. And yes, they're very close to being Wrath style again. It's very frustrating.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby Staatt » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:49 am

Agreed. I fly through heroics now. However, I wonder if it still has a lot to do with the tank b/c twice this week I've entered the dungeon finder on one of the last bosses of the dungeon after the tank was booted. I personally haven't had to boot anyone in a while.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:03 am

Nikachelle wrote:Part of the problem is the dungeon buff. Adding 15% to everyone's stats has done quite a bit.

Personally, I think it sucks. And yes, they're very close to being Wrath style again. It's very frustrating.


Define wrath style.

Tanking everything? Sure. But that is a side effect of gear and has gone back to the original heroics in TBC where Paladins were wanted due to that. Some things I still CC, like the Azure Warmasters that summon a million tiny adds that hit for a lot.

AoE DPSing everything? Not in my experience. Maybe that'll change in 4.1 with the buffs to AoE going out but increasing shitty AoE DPS by a little just makes it crappy AoE DPS.

Healer outhealing incoming damage and remaining at full mana? Not even close in my experience.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby bldavis » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:57 pm

Heroic GB
started with my usual no cc pull to test healer and dps
i wsp healer and go "want me to use cc?"
as i hit enter to send that, i notice one of the dps had pulled the next group, so i charged off to get them, misclicked or got to close or something and pulled the next group too (we are to teh drakes now)

we get all them down, and the healer is over 75% mana....
he wsp me back and says nah i think were good

end up tanking teh entire place no cc, chain pulling (when we were down to 1-2 left at low health i charge next pack)
there were times that i would be pulling the next group before charge was off cd

i missed you wrath heroics!
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby Blackharon » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:49 am

bldavis wrote:i missed you wrath heroics!


Wrath heroics can DIAF. I like a little challenge in my video games.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:49 am

Flex wrote:Healer outhealing incoming damage and remaining at full mana? Not even close in my experience.

I took this as a takeaway for the next heroics I healed in a pug. On my shaman, I won't dip below 80-90% mana. So yeah. That's Wrath style to me. I have no fear of ever going oom or even panicking that I might not have enough mana anymore. It's gotten to the point where I don't even carry water on her.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby bldavis » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:54 am

Blackharon wrote:
bldavis wrote:i missed you wrath heroics!


Wrath heroics can DIAF. I like a little challenge in my video games.

sarcasm ftw
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby Vort » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:44 pm

Heroic dungeons were a 'challenge' during the first week or 2 of Cata. Once you got 346-359 gear they became pretty 'wrath' style. When you're rocking in full 359-372 gear they become completely trivial. We've got H-Stonecore down to 15 minutes, Lost City in 14, even SFK takes 23 minutes. We just run in and aoe cleave spam everything to death. Healer is always at 100% mana after every pull. Also helps a tad that as a tank I'm pulling 17k DPS in dungeons because of chain pulling with Vengeance up.

On a side note, the heroic 5 mans differed vastly over the expansions. Wrath was a joke, I healed them with mostly level 70 gear and had no issues at all. Cataclysm was an attempt to make them difficult but not impossible and they did an ok job, but because people cried about how 'difficult' they were, blizzard ended up nerfing them and giving a 15% buff to pugs. Which brings me to the initial state of BC heroic dungeons, clearing pre-nerf Shadow Labs heroic should have been a Feat of Strength. It took over an hour, trash packs of up to 6-7 mobs, mobs that feared, gouged, and did all sorts of nasty stuff. Not only that, but the trash hit hard and I mean HARD. Anyone recall clearing pre-nerf Shattered Halls Heroic? You either needed to bring 2 tanks, 2 healers, or all 3 dps be mages because they were the only 'reliable' CC back then. Blood Furnace, wow that was a freaking nightmare early on. I remember being in almost full Kara epics/T4 and maybe 1-2 pieces of Dreadnaught but I still got gibbed on some of the packs. The Felguards at the end of the instance hit for 9k when I was running with like 17-18 that early in the expansion.

This also leads to the attunements, in order to fully attune people for things like SSC, we ran the A team through the 5 man and then had a warlock summon almost every guild member to get the quest turn in. Things early BC were incredibly harsh when it came to Heroic Dungeons and Attunements. I kind of liked the way that attunements worked, but it made things difficult like recruiting etc which is why they started having some raid bosses drop those items that could attune a player instantly.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby Aerron » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:03 am

It really is all about the gear. I recently leveled up my prot warrior, got him to 329, and started running heroics with guildies who were in a similar situation. None of the toons in our little alt-group have any epics, other than repics, and most don't even have that.

Where runs on our ilvl 359+ mains are speed runs, runs on the alts are pretty much just what they used to be at the beginning of Cata, maybe a little less difficult because we do know all the fights, pat paths, etc.

But with a well geared tank and healer, any heroic becomes ho-hum, and the better geared the dps is, it's even worse.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby Blackharon » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:18 am

bldavis wrote:
Blackharon wrote:
bldavis wrote:i missed you wrath heroics!


Wrath heroics can DIAF. I like a little challenge in my video games.

sarcasm ftw


There was no sarcasm in my post.

Oh you mean yours... >.>

You are probably correct about being able to outgear Cata heroics to a point. But in Wrath (except for the ICC heroics) I took groups of 5x DPS and blew them up in 10-12 minutes ignoring all but a few boss mechanics. I don't see that happening for Cataclysm heroics.

Perhaps I'm being short-sighted.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby bldavis » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:21 am

granted its not to the point of heroics at the end of wrath, but it is only a matter of time
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:24 am

The fact that you don't get one shot on the spinning lightning rods of doom during the gauntlet bit in heroic Deadmines is another nuisance. Everyone in my groups just runs straight through them now!
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby yappo » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:19 pm

It'll be WotLK madness eventually. We're still in the first tier, I haven't cleared half of normal mode raid content, and pugs are already lobbying nukes in the general direction of mobs. If an extra group gets pulled by mistake it's slightly interesting, but they go down anyway.

Guess what it'll be like when everyone and their mother is bombing through heroics in average ilevel four hundred and something gear and doing 100k+ party-dps overall.
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Re: Heroics in General

Postby bldavis » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:01 pm

i cant wait to see tanks doing 30k+ dps and still struggling for threat
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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