Tying Vengeance to Expertise

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Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Arianne » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:14 pm

The other thread discusses GC's idea to turn hit/expertise into avoidance stats so that tanks want them. An idea that came out of that (from Shoju and evidently other posters on the main forums) was to instead tie Vengeance to Expertise and/or Hit. I like the idea of tying it to Expertise.

The reasons are:

We need a lot more of it to "cap" the stat and it allows for much finer tuning on vengeance point by point - increasing it by % chance to hit is a bit harder because it caps out at 961 instead of 1682/1382 glyphed. (Petrus)

With the change in 4.1 to interrupts, Hit rating seems to be largely irrelevant, and it has a realistic cap. (Shoju)

Increased Expertise increases the cap on Vengeance. Vengeance starts out with a 2% cap at 0 expertise and increases to a 10% cap with 26 expertise at one function, then goes up to 15% from 26 to 56 expertise. Obviously numbers can be tweaked for this to get to whatever Blizzard feels is the 'correct' amount of threat and damage for tanks at easily marked points (0, 26, 56).

Theck's said he doesn't want to derail that thread, so I've made this one so that he can expound at length on why he doesn't like the idea. ;)
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Vrimmel » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:28 pm

Imo that's rather pointless. That's tying two dps stats together and would only benefit a gimmick max dps tank build. As long as threat is not an issue a tank couldn't care less about expertize or vengeance. As soon as it would become an issue you would gear as little as possibly needed for it. I think GC's alternative is a lot better.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Arianne » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:17 am

If we didn't get 10% Vengeance for free upon hitting 85 and spec'ing into our tank tree then we'd sure as heck want some expertise to increase our threat and vengeance cap. I'd rather have my threat stats buffing my threat rather than some crazy conversion ratio on threat stats to defensive stats.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Vrimmel » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:07 am

Increasing threat output is generally last choice when it comes to gearing for progression tanking. In any fight where survivability is important I know I would only gear for those stats to cover the bare minimum of what is needed not to threat cap the dps.

This puts us back to the same situation as before, which is that expertize and hit are undesirable stats.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:16 am

Well, for starters it introduces a severe nonlinear scaling on your DPS. Vengeance makes you hit harder, and hit/exp makes you hit more often. Either one alone scales linearly, but together they would scale nonlinearly. That would make your DPS very sensitive to the amount of hit/exp you have, which is bad if you're unlucky with gear drops. It's perhaps less of a concern with reforging, but it's still a bad thing for threat to be that sensitive to one stat.

Vengeance itself really isn't a bad mechanic. The concept is right - stacks when you're taking significant damage to prop up your DPS. The problem is that the cap is so high that we out-threat DPS without any hit/exp on our gear. Allowing us to meter the height of the cap, while convenient, doesn't do anything that hit/exp doesn't already do. We'd still want the minimum amount required to maintain threat, and we'd use just enough to raise the cap to that level.

Really, the only way to make hit/exp attractive to tanks without shackling it to survivability somehow is to make threat matter, and make hit/exp strong enough to have a significant effect. We'll still want the minimum amount necessary, but if the average DPSer puts out 30k threat, and we (or Vengeance) were tuned such that at equal gearing with full Vengeance and 0% hit, 0 exp, we put out ~25k threat at most, but at 4%/10 expertise we put out 32k, and at 8%/26 we put out 40k, then things are in pretty good shape.

An excellent tank might be able to hold threat with ~3%/6, while a weaker tank might need closer to 8%/26. It builds choice into the system, because you can stack a little extra to compensate if you're lower, but does so without having to create a varying Vengeance cap or nonlinear scaling. The most important part is that no tank be able to hold threat at 0%/0, because that's what devalues hit/exp for us currently.

The important points are:
  1. Hit/Exp have to cause a significant swing in DPS/TPS
  2. The limits of that swing have to straddle the line between "not able to hold threat" and "comfortably holding threat".
The problem is that currently the lower limit is already far above the "barely able to hold threat" line.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Shoju » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:48 am

My main thought process was this.

All tanks have Vengeance, but the cap that you personally have on vengeance is tied to the amount of Expertise you have. not Rating, but pure expertise.

You then, pull out the First Aid Glyph Box, and give each tank a Glyph that gives them 10 Expertise.

Glyph of Blood Presence
Glyph of Defensive Stance
Glyph of Bear Form
Glyph of Seal of Truth

At 10 expertise, good / very good tanks will probably not need more expertise or vengeance, as they are able to maintain threat because of the vengeance.

You can, increase your vengeance "cap" based on the amount of Expertise that you have. So, if you find that you aren't able to hold Threat for whatever reason, you can then increase your expertise, thus improving the amount that you hit, and how hard you hit.

Because of this non linear scaling, you can set it up so that it isn't a drastic increase point per point, because of it. Stats are expensive now, and good tanks will tune their gear to a point where they have enough that they feel "comfortable" Bad tanks will still be bad, and "ZOMGIHASTOGETZTO56EXPURTEEZE" all over the place. This is no different than the poor choices that bad tanks are currently making.

I personally, don't want to care about both hit and expertise. Hit is largely irrelevant for a tank in 4.1, and I applaud the change. The only time I cared about hit was taunting, and interrupting. Now, thank god, I can focus on other things.

Because of how much Expertise it would take to "Cap" expertise, I think it is a viable stat to experiment with. Yes, the math would get hairy. Yes, it isn't a perfect solution. But, it is keeping threat stats tied to threat stats and away from my defensive stats. This is the important thing for me in any solution that involves making threat stats for enticing for tanks. DO NOT tie it my defenses. That change, is a built in radiance type effect with RNG to boot. NO thanks.

Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health.


What if it were.... at 10 expertise you gain 5% up to 5% of your health. At 30 expertise, it were 5 for 10, and so on and so forth.

That would mean that each point of expertise increased your cap on vengeance by .25% of your max health, and even at soft cap of expertise, your max vengeance would still just be 5% per swing, max 9% health.

Maybe, because you would then be soft capped on expertise, we find that this is WAY TOO much DPS and TPS to be comfortable, and you readjust it to .20% of your max health per expertise.

I have to think that there would be a way to make it work so that you don't imbalance tank dps / making threat really not matter, while still adding in the idea that Threat stats matter.

As I admitted in the other thread, it is really complexity for complexities sake. It is. I see that. I hate the very notion of complexity for complexities sake, but I can't see another way to "make threat matter" while making "Threat stats more attractive" unless you just cut vengeance by approximately 35-40%.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:03 am

I'd not apply it to a glyph but make it part of the spec passive like how VotTW grants Blood DKs 6 expertise. But that gets into bordering on the old Shadow Form tooltip length. Also it would potentially favor expertise racials for even more free threat.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Shoju » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:25 am

Yeah, the racials are a sticking point.

The reason that I opted for glyphs, and I went round and round in my head about it is:

What if, in T13-14 in our ilvl9000 heroic gear when we face down Deathwing with his zombie family army we have a lot of expertise on our gear? Sweet. Drop the glyph. You don't need it. But! The entry tank still does, because he isn't in full on deathwing stomping gear.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Arianne » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:14 am

They introduced Vengeance because as you go up in gear the tanks get more tanky stats but not more DPS stats (ie: str, crit, haste), so even when you were capped on hit and expertise in Wrath, you still were relying on threat redirects to keep aggro. The problem with Vengeance is that it's too overpowered in the first tier of the expansion (actually they have a lot of problems with the first tier of an expansion that go away with later tiers). The only way to solve this currently is to blanket nerf Vengeance now and then blanket increase it every time they release a new raid tier.

Now, that's not necessarily a bad idea. It goes along with their philosophy that as more content tiers are released the earlier content tiers get easier for people who are having a hard time doing them now (ie: it becomes easier for people to PUG raid). This may be the way that they do it and they just set the base Vengeance that we started with too high and haven't wanted to nerf it due to survivability concerns (mostly for DKs and bears since warriors and paladins have block and are approaching 100% CTC).

Given that they haven't done that though, and they want hit and/or expertise to be more important to tanks (mostly, IMO for 5 mans where new/bad tanks struggle because they're following 'raid gear' advice). There's a LOT of starter gear out there with expertise on it (JP shoulders or legs/neck/belt, VP cloak and boots, bracers and ring from Ramkahen, helm from wildhammer/dragonmaw clan). Plus there's the option to reforge for it on any piece if you need to. So I don't think current gear is a limiting factor on implementing a tie between expertise and vengeance.

I think this is a good solution because it does nerf Vengeance and make threat matter more. Yes, you can rescue up to the current vengeance status if you spend the item points to do so, but then it's an interesting dichotomy between how much threat you need vs how much mitigation/avoidance you need vs how much stamina you need. They could also change the scaling while they're implementing the expertise<->vengeance tie such that at 26 expertise we only get 8% vengeance instead of the 10% we have now.

I'm also not sure that it really matters that it's nonlinear. Aren't most things in the game nonlinear, which is why you end up having simcraft, the mtadin sim, and other sims? Doesn't it need to be nonlinear to have our threat keep up with a DPSer's threat? Sure, it being nonlinear is going to make it harder for them to hit the exact right point, but at least it'll be closer than it is now?

The only way that I can see to make hit/expertise cause a significant swing in DPS/TPS is to have them affect vengeance because right now vengeance is a static constant to the equation that outweighs the variable portion. Yes, they could do that by making the static constant negligible, but then we'd be back to wrath where we have to equip DPS gear to keep threat.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Malthrax » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:59 am

Every single proposed tweak to Vengeance just reinforces why Vengeance is a poorly thought out concept in the first place.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Meloree » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:32 pm

Arianne wrote:They introduced Vengeance because as you go up in gear the tanks get more tanky stats but not more DPS stats (ie: str, crit, haste), so even when you were capped on hit and expertise in Wrath, you still were relying on threat redirects to keep aggro.


I see that bandied about a lot. You have a massively different experience with threat in Wrath than I ever had. One Tricks or MD on pull to solidify threat was more than enough to hold threat against full-out heroes and cooldowns on pull pre-potting/pre-casting DPS even with near-zero hit/expertise. Threat was brokenly unbalanced for the entire WotLK expansion, and Tricks/MD only covered for bad play, not for an actual problem with threat production.

That might be the problem that Vengeance was invented to solve, but it's an imaginary problem.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Dantriges » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:57 pm

Is that in your threat gear, where you dropped half your health and reduced the rest of your tanking stats?

Threat production wasn´t rocket science in Wrath and it´s not really difficult for paladin tanks in cata.
I don´t see how pushing the same five buttons in the same sequence for several years turns into playing badly and how you can actually produce more.
Unless you tweak your gear, aka puttng threat stats on it, we won´t produce so much more just because we are so skilled tanks.

Or perhaps upgrade your PC or whatever.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby RedAces » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:22 pm

Dantriges wrote:Is that in your threat gear, where you dropped half your health and reduced the rest of your tanking stats?


No, I tanked all ICC (10m: clear, 25m: 11/12 hc down) without any Hit / Exp-Gear (1% Hit due to draenei racial and 10 Exp due to the glyphe) just fine.

This screen is directly before Cata-Launch, but the gear was the same pre4.0
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:27 pm

Shoju wrote:As I admitted in the other thread, it is really complexity for complexities sake. It is. I see that. I hate the very notion of complexity for complexities sake, but I can't see another way to "make threat matter" while making "Threat stats more attractive" unless you just cut vengeance by approximately 35-40%.


Except that complexity for complexity's sake isn't what they're trying to do. Consider what your solution does:

1) Adjusts the threat ceiling to be low enough that a tank can't hold threat without a little expertise
2) Gives the tank a token amount via a Glyph (optional, also note that it would have to change from GoSoT to GoRighteousFury)
3) Makes expertise increase TPS in a fashion such that the player can hold threat with "sufficient" expertise.

That's not significantly different than the vastly easier solution I proposed - taking the current Vengeance cap and lowering it significantly. You will still need "enough" expertise or hit to maintain reasonable threat in my version.

In addition, your version opens up the possibility of really bad tanks massively overcompensating for their threat by stacking expertise to abuse the nonlinear scaling, possibly to the point that they could hold threat with just Crusader Strike. I don't think that ceiling should be attainable, because it doesn't send the right message. If you can't manage a simple rotation, you should lose threat - that tells you "ur doin it wrong lol." If you can overcome that very basic error by changing your gearing, you're not going to learn anything.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:32 pm

Dantriges wrote:Is that in your threat gear, where you dropped half your health and reduced the rest of your tanking stats?

No, because this was my experience too, and I did none of those things. And Mel's a far better tank than I (though he also plays with better DPS than I had at the time).

Dantriges wrote:Threat production wasn´t rocket science in Wrath and it´s not really difficult for paladin tanks in cata.
I don´t see how pushing the same five buttons in the same sequence for several years turns into playing badly and how you can actually produce more.
Unless you tweak your gear, aka puttng threat stats on it, we won´t produce so much more just because we are so skilled tanks.

Or perhaps upgrade your PC or whatever.


You would be amazed at how many mistakes people make in actual play. The concept of 969 was very easy, as is 939. Yet I still see people screw it up when I look at logs.

There really never was this fabled "tank threat crisis" that everyone seems to accept as fact, at least not for paladins. And judging by the 10-man ICC runs I did on my undergeared warrior alt, it wasn't there for warriors either.
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