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[10] Nefarian: Suggestion

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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:08 am

I was beginning to wonder if the movement bug was heroic only until reading Psiven's post above. I have yet to see the bug in action, although we've killed Nef since the patch. What triggers it?

I also wonder about the wisdom of relying on a bug to deal with boss mechanics, generally speaking. We've gotten good about add control in p3, but still, the shorter you can make P3 the better, which is why we still push crackles in p1/2. Also, achievement nerd points!
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby sakkdaddy » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:20 am

There is no need to shorten the easiest phase of the entire fight. The offtank simply moves the adds about 10 yards every 10 seconds in a circle around the edge of the room. The raid stacks up on the side of Nef, and the MT slowly rotates Nef the whole time in sync with the offtank. If the raid stays on the same side of Nef as the OT, then due to the slow fire spreading and movement of the adds, the raid will never need to move out of fire.

It's very controllable, predictable, and just plain easy if your offtank can do his job. Pushing crackles in Phase 1 while kiting is far more dangerous, especially if you take a Tail Lash at the same time as Crackle. Pushing crackles in Phase 2 is the most dangerous time because of the consistently heavy raid damage.

On normal mode, doing crackles in the first two phases is easy enough, but it's not easiest. Also the most raid-wiping mistakes are likely to happen in the first two phases, where Phase 3 should be easier than Patchwerk for everyone in the raid except the offtank.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Shathus » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:22 am

Kerriodos wrote:
Our first ten man kill we simply CC'd the adds in phase one. A hunter can handle two, though one will run around a bit. You can sheep/hex/fear the other ones. This will be easier on nights with your paladin healer because they can heal the add kiter in phase 3 and the spread-out adds will simply come to him if he puts up righteous fury--then you taunt off him. Alternatively, you could have the mage go frost and keep them grouped together with frost novas (make sure people know to stand far away from them) and ring of frost. This avoids the problem of having them spawning fire randomly all over in phase 3.


We're looking to at least get a couple Nef attempts in this week so I'm catching up on the threads here. You mention the bolded CC's above, but aren't the adds undead? You can't sheep or hex undead that I'm aware of. I was figuring on our ret pally doing the kiting. We can (hunter) trap one, he can repentance another, shackle and 3rd and warlock fear a 4th (think you can fear undead?). We have 2 shaman so hex would take care of the rest, but I didn't think that was an option.

Otherwise I'm just figuring on the hunter laying down some ice traps and having the ret kite them/whatever is left for the 50 seconds.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Chicken » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:28 am

The adds used to be... Humanoid I think. And so susceptible to most forms of CC, they were changed to Undead in 4.0.6, heavily limiting the CC options available.

Also the only way to fear undead mobs is Turn Evil.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:35 pm

The group I heal beat Nef last week, using basically the tankspot strategy.

We had our dps warrior grab the adds in ph1 and drag them to the end of the room farthest from the entry point, with a small amount of practice he could make a nice pile. I was healing the bear tank on Ony on the right, and the other healers were on the Pally tank on the left. We burned Ony till Nef landed, then all but 1 melee dps switched to Nef (althouth to avoid tail swipes you could have ranged do it too). We pushed 2 crackles in ph1, one near about 35% ony health, the other maybe 15% (remember just a tank and 1 dps and my seal of insight melee strikes).

For the transition to ph2, we put 1 ranged on each platofrm, plus 1 healer. The 2 melee split up, and the 2 tanks both came to my platform on the right. Holy Radiance really kicked ass during ph2. We did not elect to try a crackle during ph2, as it can be rough on the healers. During the transition to ph3, our druid healer would drink a concentration mana pot (like 22k mana over 10sec, but no other action allowed). I have been able to manage my mana by meleeing Ony and the ph2 add, but at times it is tight, so I have increased my supply of cata pots just in case.

For ph3, the bear took the adds, and I healed him, with everyone else trying to hug nef on the left side, per the tankspot video. We popped hero right afer Nef was in position. The bear and I dragged the adds from the top clockwise around the outside, without any cc at all (ie keep them out of the fire). After like the second ph2 crackle the adds ran out of juice about 1/3 the way around the crcle, and the bear and I chilled while I regained mana. I tried to use Div Plea during this rest phase, or when adds were low so healing requirements were low. After that, it was mostly continuous movement. At the bottom, we would cut back accross the center of the room, only moving as necessary for fire, all the way to the top again.

After reaching the top and starting lap #2, the adds began to get unruly and have different energy levels (10 sec cadence for you). I did actually use Holy Wrath to stun them to prevent them from ganking the raid until the bear could recover them. However, about the time we reached where the adds had run down the first time, they killed the bear tank (sorry) during the final crackle, and ganked the raid. The mage put down a circle of frost and we nuked the boss, pulling it out after a couple similar wipes. Phew.

Personally, I was suprised, as I expected the sit in center and rotate method to work better, but I'll take it :) We didn't actually try the other method since this worked for us after a modest number of attempts.

The encounter is definitely a drain on healer mana (3 healers). Dealing with Ony tailswipes, sometimes during a ph1 crackle was a tad nailbiting. Using raid cooldowns for crackles, especially during ph1 is very helpfull. And those CDs should be up for some of the ph3 crackels. If there was a tail swipe issue I would use aura mastery after the crackle to ease damage on my tank from Ony breath. My preference was to use hand of sacrifice if my health could stand it and save bubble and aurua mastery for the ph1-ph2 transition. I hate the damn lava and divine shield rocks for that, and aura mastery can help the rest of my pillar survive getting on the pillar.

We did discuss using hero later in the encounter, but I agrued that early in ph3 was better as I and other healers would have more mana to sustain 2 relatively quick crackles, than later on. But I guess using hero below 20% might only result in 1 quick crackle.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Kerriodos » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:04 am

Chicken wrote:The adds used to be... Humanoid I think. And so susceptible to most forms of CC, they were changed to Undead in 4.0.6, heavily limiting the CC options available.

Also the only way to fear undead mobs is Turn Evil.


During our ten man kill, when we had to CC rather than tank the adds, we were able to both shackle and warlock/priest fear. This was around the third or forth week into Cataclysm, so I think the adds just have some weird classifications when it comes to CC.

Hrobertgar wrote:We did discuss using hero later in the encounter, but I agrued that early in ph3 was better as I and other healers would have more mana to sustain 2 relatively quick crackles, than later on. But I guess using hero below 20% might only result in 1 quick crackle.


Our lust strategy is to use it as soon as the 30% crackle goes off (so around 27%). We heal up quickly, push the 20%, and heal that while still lusted. After that, we push the final crackle and healers don't need to worry about topping people off anymore.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Belloc » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:40 am

Kerriodos wrote:
During our ten man kill, when we had to CC rather than tank the adds, we were able to both shackle and warlock/priest fear. This was around the third or forth week into Cataclysm, so I think the adds just have some weird classifications when it comes to CC.

At the start of Cata, the adds didn't have a creature type (that I remember), so they were susceptible to fear. This is no longer the case.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Ezelyn » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:56 am

Hrobertgar wrote:For ph3, the bear took the adds, and I healed him, with everyone else trying to hug nef on the left side, per the tankspot video.


We are playing with the same tank comp (pala and drood) but we definitively dont let the Feral drood on adds in P3. Paladin takes less dammage than a drood in a aoe tanking phase and he can use some tools very usefull. (stun, bubble and LoH)
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:24 am

I appreciate the block tank for the adds, but based on my few pulls with Nef on my pally tank, Nef hits like a truck too; whereas the adds are only bad when they get up near 20 stacks, and if the add tank can manage to get them to drop stacks after the ~ 3rd shadowflame ball then the adds won't get to 20 till Nef is almost down. With me (holy Pally) on the bear, I switch from Resist aura (ph1 & ph2) to Devo aura for ph3, and I hit him with LoH, HoS, everything. I even use FoL after some of the crackes, and the prot pally sometimes helps with heals during ph2, so I can start ph3 close to full mana. I will also usually mana pot during the transition between ph2 & ph3.

We downed Nef again last night. The bear did die again shortly after the last crackle, *whistles innocently and looks around futiley for someone to blame ;p* but of our few wipes prior to the kill, only one was for fail OT heals in ph3. Again, afer OT death I tried the Holy Wrath to slow the adds ganking the raid, and the mage circle was awesome. Only about 6/10 died (including me) at the end, so its all good right, lol. So our kills are a tad messy at the end, but hopefully with a bit more practice and some better gear for everyone they will get cleaner. At this point, its probably a comfort thing; the bear is good with Ony and the adds, and the pally is good with Nef so as long as we get kills we will probably stay this way. And we are probably a long ways from worrying about heroic Nef.

The bear tank died just as we completed our second lap, if that helps callibrate things any. So if you view it as a clock with the ph1 encounter start at 6 0'clock, we start adds at 12 o'clock. The adds lose energy on the first lap near 4-5 0'clock. Then at 5-6 o'clock we cut straight accross (as Nef is sitting at 9 o'clock), still stopping on the way and dropping flames in the center to make certain the flames are out when we get back to 12 o'clock. On our first kill the bear died prolly near the center of the room, on our second kill he died close to 12 o'clock. So 1.5 to 2 laps, assuming 2 crackels in ph1 and one in ph2.

Finally, my bear tank is kiting the adds by looking for the marker on the floor, rather than using any timer from DBM or another addon. By the time we are at a 10sec cadence, some of the adds often start having variable energy levels, so sometimes one can escape while we move the rest during its reset, I try to grab it for him if I can, but sometimes the hunter must MD them back or the raid just eats one. Having all of them reset together around 4-5 o'clock on lap #1 is critical, otherwise the add tank is going to be brutalized and some adds are likely to escape. If they can all reset a second time, then woot.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:03 pm

We just left BwD, there was a major issue with Nef, and a little one with Atramedes.

On Nef the skelly adds from ph1 were NOT dropping/resetting their threat table after their energy ran low, causing them to immediately aggro onto their ph1 'tank'. When we had our ret pally stand next to our ph3 kiter and bubble, they just went after his ph1 healer.

Obviously, unless this gets fixed it makes it almost impossible for a 10m raid to beat him. I mean if one of the dragon tanks picks up the adds, then they will forever get refreshed on energy and never die. But bringing a 3rd tank for a 10m raid is a prohibitive penalty on dps. Hopefully this will be fixed soon, with them resetting aggro each time they run out of energy, like before.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:22 pm

I understand this isn't exactly ideal, but not sure why it's game-breaking?

Have your ret stand with your skelly tank, righteous defense 3 off and taunt 1 as soon as they spawn, get the last one when taunt's back up? Ok your ret loses ~12-15 seconds dps time, but still, seems manageable. Not like the skellies hit that hard when they've just revived anyway.

Unless your add tank isn't a paladin or a warrior ofc, in which case I can see the issue.

Edit: duh, only read the above post and not the one before that explaining you have a bear on the adds, sorry.
Last edited by Rhiannon on Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Belloc » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:15 pm

The add tank could always taunt the adds immediately before they die in phase 1...
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Ezelyn » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:43 am

If you pack adds in P1, why doesnt your bear use his aoe taunt when they all came back to life ? nef is far from this spot.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby PsiVen » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:04 am

Challenging Roar is not a proper taunt, the adds will still have a ton of threat on whoever was handling them in P1. It's possible to deal with, but very problematic.

Ironically, the best way to deal with this is a strategy that was discussed here: Stack all the adds on the Nef tank and chain cooldowns until Onyxia is dead ASAP, with no electrocutes in P1. Onyxia's tank then tanks Nef in P3.

Though this strategy sounds fun (unless you're still learning the OT kiting in P3...) unfortunately this problem has already been hotfixed on US+EU as far as I am aware.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Astronii » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:54 am

The way my guild handles nef of 10 is me(tankadin) takes ony and our dk tank takes Nef etc etc p3... dk takes nef i kite adds, in phase one our dps cc/kite them. we tank nef on the side and i kite the adds round the room. never had any issues with this tactic. and im sure aggro is reset. our dps usually leave all the adds killed in the middle of the room for me to pick up. i just avenger shield and HotR and they chasing me like a mouse to cheese.
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