Prot Warriors

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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:40 pm

Dane wrote:Him:
Block: 43.98%

Me:
Block: 51.50%

Looks pretty cut and dried to me. We're fairly similarly geared, levelwise...he's a little up on me.


That's mostly what I meant. I think that comparing direct stats is less fruitful than throwing his character into a reforging calculator and saying "{stats} is where you'd be if you gemmed for mastery, and used mitigation/avoidance trinkets rather than stamina". You can trade X% health for Y% damage reduction, etc. Combat table coverage (as we know) tends to make you appear easier to heal (in most cases), and you can show the difference in having 66% versus 76% combat table coverage. For example, I found I could get ~5% combat table coverage by trading away less than 5% of my health (or something similar), and decided I'd try it.

Then, try to show parses where you both tank similar fights (Omnotron, Halfus, Valiona, etc) and see if there's significant differences in the damage you're taking. Overall damage and dps-taken for fights will help illustrate the validity of your above point better, in general. The fact that you, with non-stam trinkets and not purely stam gemming, have survived tanking the same fights might convince him that he doesn't need as much.

Conversely, maybe he's geared fine (aside from trinkets) and just isn't very good at smart cooldown use? (I know on my DK I'm pretty bad at that.)
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Hokahey » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:05 am

Dane wrote:Here's a Cat raiding-level prot warrior question, or series, rather...

1) Hit cap...more important than it is for us? Should warrior tanks be reforging for hit?
2) Kind of a catch-all...as the "other" shield tank, is their gearing fairly similar to ours? My co-tank is 5 or so ilevels ahead of me...but healers say I'm easier to keep up. I checked our respective armories, and while he's sitting at about 160k unbuffed to my either 147 or 143...(sorry, stam isn't my gearing priority, so I know I'm lose to the 150k I want, but not QUITE there...I also don't know my exact number. I have enough to survive...I know that much.) but I've got about 7% more block than him. Dodge and parry are the same until you get to the hundreths column...
3) Threat...does he really need a shield spike...or would a defensive enchant serve him better?

I have a feeling I should have a talk with him, but I'd like to be sure I'm not making a fool of myself first. He's rocking dual-stam trinkets...which I told him was silliness at our gear/content level, but then I realized...maybe it isn't for a warrior, maybe it is.

Any insight is appreciated.


1) Absolutely not. This is about as wrong as a person could reasonably get. Keep in mind that he makes up for a threat loss in raids (since he has no "free Expertise" glyph) by being able to put Vigilance on a co-tank (if it is a 2 or more tank encounter), which gives him Vengeance every time the target takes damage. This is a *huge* threat boost if you are both tanking stuff at the same time. If its a fight involving swaps, he doesn't lose Vengeance while your tanking, provided he's put Vigilance on you. HUGE.

2) Warrior gearing is pretty much identical to Paladins. Mastery is the bomb. Stam stacking is soooo last 2 expansions.

3) While the shield enchant options are underwhelming, Shield Spikes are purely for the lazy, and even then only worthwhile on trash. If he is struggling for AoE threat more than you or other tanks, then he is probably doing something wrong. Between Thunderclap, Blood and Thunder, Cleave, and Shockwave he should have all the sustained and snap AoE threat that he needs to keep AoE aggro under reasonable circumstances.

Of course, under circumstances where a group's DPS is being uncoordinated and/or overzealous (focusing down mobs he isn't primarily focused on, or launching into AoE before he even pops Thunderclap), and he has mobs running everywhere with little or no rage to use, he may have more trouble getting them back, due to needing to target each mob for Taunt, and making sure to apply some threat to each of those mobs after he does. If Vigilance isn't on anyone (Warriors often forget to use it), or if its on someone who isn't getting hit, he has no choice but to wait out the cooldown on Taunt after each use. Mind you, Vigilance has no cooldown, and costs no rage to put on someone, so a savvy player *could* swap it around between players mid-fight, but every time you do its a lost GCD, and more time spent generating little/no threat.

The only other option is Challenging Shout, which isn't an actual taunt, it just forces everything in range to focus on him until it wears off, and the cooldown is long enough that it rarely gets used, so many people forget they have it, particularly when shit hits the fan.

Some long standing Warrior players (or people who listen to the bullshit on the forums/or in trade chat) still operate under the assumption that they are the absolute worst tank for AoE threat, and require special considerations/gearing to tank trash/groups of adds. This isn't true, and really hasn't been since prior to 3.0.

Pending how long he's been playing a Warrior, he just may not be "up" on current theorycraft, and may view any discussion about Stam stacking as yet another clueless "avoidance noob" telling him to stop stacking Stam. Unlike Paladins, Warriors have never really had a specific Avoidance threshold to gear towards ("Avoidance is just more overheal" was a commonly heard phrase for a *long* time).

They've only rarely actively sought out being "unhittable" or "uncrushable" through gear, and never as a general approach to gearing. In the past, it has been only getting to a minimum Defense threshold for being uncrittable, then stack Stamina and/or possibly threat to the exclusion of all else. So the Cataclysm model where Blocking attacks/Avoidance actually matters is somewhat new to Warriors.

Perhaps all that may lend some insight to your co-tank's perspective.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby bldavis » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:55 am

maybe that is why ppl like my warrior
i played a class that avoidence mattered, so i am gemming,gearing, enchanting, reforging for more block and avoidance.....


granted i started my pally in the hey day of stam stacking, and have never been bleeding edge raiding with him, but still
im used to that style of thinking, thus it is natural to me, and not as foreign
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Hokahey » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:53 am

bldavis wrote:maybe that is why ppl like my warrior
i played a class that avoidence mattered, so i am gemming,gearing, enchanting, reforging for more block and avoidance.....


granted i started my pally in the hey day of stam stacking, and have never been bleeding edge raiding with him, but still
im used to that style of thinking, thus it is natural to me, and not as foreign


Its certainly possible. Also, people adapt to change at differing rates. Many players don't seek out new information on their class unless they can clearly identify a serious problem. Without running over parses and comparing damage taken with other tanks, stacking Stamina preferentially to mitigation/avoidance isn't clearly inferior (and it may *still* be unclear which is better, for some players). With the heavy reinforcement for at least the last 4 years that stacking avoidance/mitigation at all is clearly for morons, its difficult to convince some players to change.

The problem is that mitigation/avoidance is mostly about reducing the mana cost to keep you alive. There are multiple variables that can account for healers going oom, only one of which is the tank's gear. Unskilled healer(s), undergeared healer(s), DPS taking too much damage, DPS too low, bad RNG, etc. are all variables that someone in doubt of the new paradigm can hide behind when they *do* experience problems (i.e. "it would have been fine if Bob the Priest would l2heal").

There's a second issue. HP is the most visible statistic of any importance to a tank other players can see. They don't need to look at armory, or even inspect. They don't need to wait for the tank to pull something, unlike threat. Its literally right there, all the time. Its pretty much the first thing everyone sees when you join a group as the tank. This compounds the real value with a special social value, making it seem even more important to have a large healthpool.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby thatguy » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:06 am

I'm not playing devil's advocate but hit cap is mildly important (especially on 10s) on interrupt fights like Maloriak/Tron Council. However, every good tank has different sets that they swap out to fix this issue. If he's worried about threat, expertise is still the best stat for that.

I agree though, gearing for hit/expertise is silly verging on stupid when fights don't call for it. I have two tanks in our guild that ALWAYS want to be hit capped regardless of the fight. I argue with them weekly about gearing for hit. I'm just going to have to chalk it up to them being stubborn and not doing their research. It drivess me bonkers though. I notice a huge difference in healing one of our tanks who is more CTC focused (mastery/parry/dodge/etc) versus those that stack their hit.

If any tank is mildly geared and is having threat issues after the first 4 GCDs, then they're just plain doing it wrong.

On a completely unrelated note, I also get blamed when my Wind Shear misses while I'm healing. (Riggghhhtttt, cause healers should stack hit.)
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:54 am

On the plus side, interrupts won't miss in 4.1.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Chicken » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:16 am

thatguy wrote:On a completely unrelated note, I also get blamed when my Wind Shear misses while I'm healing. (Riggghhhtttt, cause healers should stack hit.)
Well, technically you could pick up Elemental Precision. It'll bring you to the hit cap so as long as you have 1742 spirit on your gear! Of course it also causes you to lose out on some other valuable talents, but that's just details!
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Dane » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:56 pm

Thanks for all the guidance, guys. Good info. I was tempted to post his armory as well as mine (I know I have a few warts myself, btw...but I like to think I have MOST of the theory right), but it just didn't seem thread/forum appropriate.

Even without that, you all rose to the challenge. THIS is why I visit MTadin...
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Hokahey » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:35 pm

thatguy wrote:I'm not playing devil's advocate but hit cap is mildly important (especially on 10s) on interrupt fights like Maloriak/Tron Council. However, every good tank has different sets that they swap out to fix this issue. If he's worried about threat, expertise is still the best stat for that.

I agree though, gearing for hit/expertise is silly verging on stupid when fights don't call for it. I have two tanks in our guild that ALWAYS want to be hit capped regardless of the fight. I argue with them weekly about gearing for hit. I'm just going to have to chalk it up to them being stubborn and not doing their research. It drivess me bonkers though. I notice a huge difference in healing one of our tanks who is more CTC focused (mastery/parry/dodge/etc) versus those that stack their hit.

If any tank is mildly geared and is having threat issues after the first 4 GCDs, then they're just plain doing it wrong.

On a completely unrelated note, I also get blamed when my Wind Shear misses while I'm healing. (Riggghhhtttt, cause healers should stack hit.)


You are absolutely correct that Hit rating still has a value in specific scenarios where the raid's strategy relies on the tank for interrupting key boss abilities. I could see having extra pieces that you keep tucked away, and bring out only for those scenarios. As a generalized gearing strategy, Hit is possibly the worst stat to be reforging into as a Warrior. As you pointed out Expertise would be a stronger overall threat boost.

I don't know that the set Dane is discussing is his generalized tanking set. It could be Dane popped into armory and caught him in his lolheroics gear, or in his designated interrupter set. I'm assuming not.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby thatguy » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:38 am

Chicken wrote:
thatguy wrote:On a completely unrelated note, I also get blamed when my Wind Shear misses while I'm healing. (Riggghhhtttt, cause healers should stack hit.)
Well, technically you could pick up Elemental Precision. It'll bring you to the hit cap so as long as you have 1742 spirit on your gear! Of course it also causes you to lose out on some other valuable talents, but that's just details!


Technically yes, but you might as well just put away your heal set if you're giving up Imbued Weapons, Ghost Wolf and Improved Shields.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby thatguy » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:45 am

Hokahey wrote:I don't know that the set Dane is discussing is his generalized tanking set. It could be Dane popped into armory and caught him in his lolheroics gear, or in his designated interrupter set. I'm assuming not.


Very true, although I'd bet a nickel that it was his raid set.

I'm probably in the minority on this but I wear my very best gear even for heroics (although my gear still sucks :P). It makes it easier on the healer and allows for a little wiggle room when stuff inevitably hits the fan. My dps is probably a little lower but I'm able to pull more quickly which I think everyone enjoys.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Dane » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:02 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:On the plus side, interrupts won't miss in 4.1.


On the even plusser side, he doesn't even have that argument. *I* tank the interrupt fights...because I an get em all. I need to do my Warrior research, but he doesn't think he has enough for Arcanotron, Maloriak, Halfus (with the...storm? Drake,) and just last night, he got moved off of Feludius because of interupts.

I tried bringing it up, but my RL said "He's fine...he's a throughput tank."

I had never heard of such a thing, of ourse, so I was enlightened to learn that it means he gears for threat...which I promptly said shouln't be an issue after the first 30 seconds...which my co-tank agreed with.

I'm going to have to have a chat with my RL...it's good to be GM sometimes, and be able to throw your weight around.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Dane » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:06 pm

thatguy wrote:
Hokahey wrote:I don't know that the set Dane is discussing is his generalized tanking set. It could be Dane popped into armory and caught him in his lolheroics gear, or in his designated interrupter set. I'm assuming not.


Very true, although I'd bet a nickel that it was his raid set.

I'm probably in the minority on this but I wear my very best gear even for heroics (although my gear still sucks :P). It makes it easier on the healer and allows for a little wiggle room when stuff inevitably hits the fan. My dps is probably a little lower but I'm able to pull more quickly which I think everyone enjoys.


BTW, you win a nickle. He doesn't maintain multiple tank sets...he's rocking dual stam trinkets cause they're the highest ilevel he's got. I was extolling the BH repic trinkets, and he was saying he'd get one as soon as he got to exalted.

Maybe if he spent less time on BoT trash runs...
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Hokahey » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:52 pm

thatguy wrote:
Hokahey wrote:I don't know that the set Dane is discussing is his generalized tanking set. It could be Dane popped into armory and caught him in his lolheroics gear, or in his designated interrupter set. I'm assuming not.


Very true, although I'd bet a nickel that it was his raid set.

I'm probably in the minority on this but I wear my very best gear even for heroics (although my gear still sucks :P). It makes it easier on the healer and allows for a little wiggle room when stuff inevitably hits the fan. My dps is probably a little lower but I'm able to pull more quickly which I think everyone enjoys.


As do I, and I've yet to experience what I'd consider "threat problems" on my Warrior in Heroics. I've got ~2.3% and 2 Expertise in my tanking set, and provided I get to attack something before the group does, it pretty much stays on me. Some pulls are problematic due to how they're set up (some Deadmines trash, that first pull in VP, etc.). In general, excluding pulls with 2 healers or with combos of mobs that do lots of AoE, its pretty much "mark skull, glance at healer's mana, charge" or the same process, with "shoot/Heroic Throw, run away" thrown in if I want to pull the group back.

Warrior tanking is absurdly easy now.

My Warrior's problem is the opposite of Dane's co-tank. I've got (H)Throngus' Finger, and the repic from TB dailies, but no Stam trinkets. Even then, I've got 145k hp, ~12% Dodge, ~13% Parry, and ~50% Block, unbuffed. I haven't been as devoted to gearing him as I should be if I wanted to be serious about tanking, or about taking regular cracks at H Stonecore for Leaden Despair, or H VP for the tanking gun, but those would be the last upgrades before there was nothing left but Valor Points for upgrades. He's an alt, and I don't have the time to get him into heroics every day along with my Druid, much less raid.

Dane wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:On the plus side, interrupts won't miss in 4.1.


On the even plusser side, he doesn't even have that argument. *I* tank the interrupt fights...because I an get em all. I need to do my Warrior research, but he doesn't think he has enough for Arcanotron, Maloriak, Halfus (with the...storm? Drake,) and just last night, he got moved off of Feludius because of interupts.

I tried bringing it up, but my RL said "He's fine...he's a throughput tank."

I had never heard of such a thing, of ourse, so I was enlightened to learn that it means he gears for threat...which I promptly said shouln't be an issue after the first 30 seconds...which my co-tank agreed with.

I'm going to have to have a chat with my RL...it's good to be GM sometimes, and be able to throw your weight around.


"Throughput tank"? Is the RL a healer? :lol: Just kidding, just seems like a very "healer-ish" thing to say.

As a side note, I really do wonder how Warriors and Paladins fare against eachother in terms of threat. Clearly both are more than adequate, but even the problems some have expressed on this site with threat in Heroics hasn't really existed for me while I'm tanking on my Warrior. Its certainly *possible* I am simply that awesome at smashing buttons like a monkey on a drunken rampage, but I'm not inclined to believe that.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby thatguy » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:33 am

In every dungeon, the first pull is always the most difficult for me. I think it's a combination of being low on rage and dpser's trinkets going off. Once I get past the first pull, the rage that I have left over from fights makes each other pull trivial. I know my healers are wondering "What the hell is going on with this tank?" and then it all gets better.

In my stupid moment of the night, I tanked BRC last night. The last boss drops the shoulders (Raz's Pauldrons I think). It was an upgrade over what I have. I hit need as I was the only plate wearer, say my thanks to the group, and get all excited. I check my bags and the shoulders aren't there. I left before the group finished their rolls. It was a LFD dungeon so I couldn't get back in time. I feel like such a moron. I opened a ticket in hopes that a GM would pity me but I'm not holding my breath.
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