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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Lightbeard » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:44 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:Epicurus' trilemma.

One of the earliest uses of the trilemma formulation is that of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, rejecting the idea of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God (as summarised by David Hume):

If God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good.
If God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?



I hate this analogy because it completely fails to acknowledge a little thing called

FREE WILL
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:40 pm

Lightbeard wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:Epicurus' trilemma.

One of the earliest uses of the trilemma formulation is that of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, rejecting the idea of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God (as summarised by David Hume):

If God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good.
If God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?



I hate this analogy because it completely fails to acknowledge a little thing called

FREE WILL


The concept of humanity having free will is in no way inconsistant with this argument. Falls neatly into any of the three clauses.
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Masumi » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:15 pm

Passionario wrote:Another possible explanation can be illustrated by a crude WoW analogy:

"Blizzard has total control over everything that happens on the servers. Blizzard wants players to kill bosses and loot their stuff. So why doesn't Blizzard give all mobs in the game 1 HP and make them drop their entire loot table whenever they get killed?"

Instead of directly stopping and preventing all the world's evil, God gave humans the ability (and responsibility) to deal with their own problems.


then it would fall into

If God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good.

he is not willing to stop it, so he is not a good god
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Chicken » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:26 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:Epicurus' trilemma.

One of the earliest uses of the trilemma formulation is that of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, rejecting the idea of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God (as summarised by David Hume):

If God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good.
If God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?
That reminds me of something else. Let's call it the Three Laws of Theinoids.

1. A god may not injure a being or, through inaction, allow a being to come to harm.
2. A god must hear any prayers given to it by beings, except where such prayers would conflict with the First Law.
3. A god must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Fivelives » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:35 am

I'm utterly convinced that if there is a deity, then he/she/it is either so distant as to be uncaring, or actively hates the human race. In other words, god is a kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass on a sunny day.
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Tev » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:04 am

God gave us free will and the expectation that we should not commit evil, and that we should stop the evil that we see.

God is able to prevent evil, the duty is a responsibility delegated to mankind.
God is willing to prevent evil, he teaches us and guides us on how.
Then why is there evil? Because we chose to allow evil to exist, we sit around debating the existance of God instead of helping those in need or stopping those who commit acts of evil.

In any case, I think this discussion would be better suited in another thread.
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Dantriges » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:09 am

Oh, started a massive derail it seems.

Ok I assume God exists. I have not much proof and if we go with an afterlife, the time I find out, is actuallymeaningless for the rest of humanity, because well I am dead and gone. People usually don´t come back and tell you "oh yeah it´s nice in paradise."

I assume that holy books are mostly written by huamns. Perhaps they had some very brief contact with a higher being of vastly higher intelligence and tried to pen in their own words what they experienced. Being human they added a lot of their own or simply got it wrong. Let´s take the Genesis for example. Holy Man gets into contact with a higher being and sees how the universe came into being. He is completely confused or knows that his nation of shepherds and farmers won´t grasp the concepts at all (billions of years, complex chemical reaactions of stuff no one ever heard something of) and writes it in a more understandable way.

God doesn´t interfere much or at all with the physical universe. Perhaps he doesn´t want to or is unable to. Eternity seems to be more or less a very radical different state from our causality. I think that it´s more characterised by the absence of space and time. Or Gd doesn´t follow our concepts of good and evil. Being someone with vast intelligence etc probably turns you a bit distant or at least you have another perspective. Ok so you could say I question omnipotence or inherent goodness of God but well the world is not perfect.

Let´s assume we were all perfect moral upright beings, we have everything and God interferes as soon as something bad happens. Want to imagine that? I think this would be a very boring and static life. Everyone would more or less turn over every decision to God (being omni whatever or at least so much more knowledgeable and powerful that the difference desn´t matter makes you into a good advisor).

Or let´s say the world is our legacy and God is our parent. If everything was perfect and God on call, we would turn into rich spoiled children who run to daddy if something happens. I think most of us loathe these kind of persons, even rich parents don´t want their kids to turn out this way.

So God had to let us go and let us do our own thing. Probably he isn´t too fond of some of our decisions or would like to help but at some time, a parent has to let his children go.
The world is our heritage and it´s a rich one. It´s not a perfect one but if the world was perfect, we would never have invented even something basic as fire.

So if he wanted something more than mindless children, which still need diapers, he had to let us go on our own and do our own thing. And let´s face it, creating a species of adoring mindless morons is pretty mean.

If you want to include religion into this, most boil down to "Be a kind person". That´s probably the only advice we will ever get. It´s a good advice, considering that you have to spend eternity with everyone else you were a cruel or mean person to, screwed them over or ruined their life. The rest is more or less tacked on.
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Punkss2 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:20 am

Tev wrote:God gave us free will and the expectation that we should not commit evil, and that we should stop the evil that we see.

God is able to prevent evil, the duty is a responsibility delegated to mankind.
God is willing to prevent evil, he teaches us and guides us on how.
Then why is there evil? Because we chose to allow evil to exist, we sit around debating the existance of God instead of helping those in need or stopping those who commit acts of evil.

In any case, I think this discussion would be better suited in another thread.


This. /agree
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Lightbeard » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:01 pm

Tev wrote:God gave us free will and the expectation that we should not commit evil, and that we should stop the evil that we see.

God is able to prevent evil, the duty is a responsibility delegated to mankind.
God is willing to prevent evil, he teaches us and guides us on how.
Then why is there evil? Because we chose to allow evil to exist, we sit around debating the existance of God instead of helping those in need or stopping those who commit acts of evil.

In any case, I think this discussion would be better suited in another thread.


Well said

Lets stop derailing the thread however and not have this turn into an Atheist vs Religion debate about God
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Masumi » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:36 pm

Tev wrote:God gave us free will and the expectation that we should not commit evil, and that we should stop the evil that we see.

God is able to prevent evil, the duty is a responsibility delegated to mankind.
God is willing to prevent evil, he teaches us and guides us on how.
Then why is there evil? Because we chose to allow evil to exist, we sit around debating the existance of God instead of helping those in need or stopping those who commit acts of evil.

In any case, I think this discussion would be better suited in another thread.


all this goes back to the same theory they posted if he is just able to stand there and not do anything but let humanity handle the issues he is not omnipotent nor benevolent. if god is able to prevent evil but does not, it only exist because he himself is evil.

let me put the example my cousin yumi told my cousin kana to shut her up about the gods doing it for a reason, If you take a small rabbit, you nurture it and care for it until its grown. and then dump it into a river knowing it will drown. will you let it fend for itself or will you, its protector rescue it? you gave nurtured it, you let it grow and you yourself as god has, threw it into danger. and that leads to another question, if you brought such danger to it, then what makes you good to begin with?
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Lightbeard » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:15 pm

Masumi wrote:
Tev wrote:God gave us free will and the expectation that we should not commit evil, and that we should stop the evil that we see.

God is able to prevent evil, the duty is a responsibility delegated to mankind.
God is willing to prevent evil, he teaches us and guides us on how.
Then why is there evil? Because we chose to allow evil to exist, we sit around debating the existance of God instead of helping those in need or stopping those who commit acts of evil.

In any case, I think this discussion would be better suited in another thread.


all this goes back to the same theory they posted if he is just able to stand there and not do anything but let humanity handle the issues he is not omnipotent nor benevolent. if god is able to prevent evil but does not, it only exist because he himself is evil.

let me put the example my cousin yumi told my cousin kana to shut her up about the gods doing it for a reason, If you take a small rabbit, you nurture it and care for it until its grown. and then dump it into a river knowing it will drown. will you let it fend for itself or will you, its protector rescue it? you gave nurtured it, you let it grow and you yourself as god has, threw it into danger. and that leads to another question, if you brought such danger to it, then what makes you good to begin with?


That's a horrible example because

1. You didn't teach the rabbit to swim
2. God gave us the tools to not sin as well as free will to make our own decisions.
3. I wouldn't exactly say God raised people in the same way you'd raise a rabbit.
4. That one incident of hypothetically throwing a rabbit into a lake as evil as that is (even though I hate rabbits) wouldn't make someone pure evil. What if said person cured cancer, rescues homeless people, etc.

Lastly in regards to your first point. You can't keep something bottled up forever, eventually you'll have to let it free and make it's own decisions. Assuming there is a God (which I do believe) he gave us free will to shape our own lives and destiny. If I start hanging out with the Crips and get shot. Can I really blame God for that?

Do you see where I'm going with this?
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Masumi » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:46 pm

Lightbeard wrote:
That's a horrible example because

1. You didn't teach the rabbit to swim
2. God gave us the tools to not sin as well as free will to make our own decisions.
3. I wouldn't exactly say God raised people in the same way you'd raise a rabbit.
4. That one incident of hypothetically throwing a rabbit into a lake as evil as that is (even though I hate rabbits) wouldn't make someone pure evil. What if said person cured cancer, rescues homeless people, etc.

Lastly in regards to your first point. You can't keep something bottled up forever, eventually you'll have to let it free and make it's own decisions. Assuming there is a God (which I do believe) he gave us free will to shape our own lives and destiny. If I start hanging out with the Crips and get shot. Can I really blame God for that?

Do you see where I'm going with this?


-God didn't teach us to swim

-sin doesn't have nothing to do with the question, its putting you who raised the rabbit, god that created us. making earthquake is said to the the act of god that made a tsunami to down people. you drown the rabbit by tossing it into a river.

-God standing by and waiting to see what happens is the same as you throwing the rabbit in and doing nothing.
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:25 pm

Masumi wrote:
Lightbeard wrote:
That's a horrible example because

1. You didn't teach the rabbit to swim
2. God gave us the tools to not sin as well as free will to make our own decisions.
3. I wouldn't exactly say God raised people in the same way you'd raise a rabbit.
4. That one incident of hypothetically throwing a rabbit into a lake as evil as that is (even though I hate rabbits) wouldn't make someone pure evil. What if said person cured cancer, rescues homeless people, etc.

Lastly in regards to your first point. You can't keep something bottled up forever, eventually you'll have to let it free and make it's own decisions. Assuming there is a God (which I do believe) he gave us free will to shape our own lives and destiny. If I start hanging out with the Crips and get shot. Can I really blame God for that?

Do you see where I'm going with this?


-God didn't teach us to swim

-sin doesn't have nothing to do with the question, its putting you who raised the rabbit, god that created us. making earthquake is said to the the act of god that made a tsunami to down people. you drown the rabbit by tossing it into a river.

-God standing by and waiting to see what happens is the same as you throwing the rabbit in and doing nothing.

I'm not a religious person, but I think the concept of free will does in fact make this whole conversation pretty moot, and reduces those comments down to silly parables. I mean really, we all can prevent evil, but we don't spend our lives attempting to prevent it everywhere possible even though we know it's going on, and so by that logic we would all be evil.

If god were to prevent us from doing evil then we'd all be slaves doing what we are compelled to do, and you can't truly accept anything (especially the belief in god) if you aren't free.

In any event, this conversation has digressed enough. Lets get back on track so the thread can remain open.
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Lightbeard » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:30 pm

Masumi wrote:
Lightbeard wrote:
That's a horrible example because

1. You didn't teach the rabbit to swim
2. God gave us the tools to not sin as well as free will to make our own decisions.
3. I wouldn't exactly say God raised people in the same way you'd raise a rabbit.
4. That one incident of hypothetically throwing a rabbit into a lake as evil as that is (even though I hate rabbits) wouldn't make someone pure evil. What if said person cured cancer, rescues homeless people, etc.

Lastly in regards to your first point. You can't keep something bottled up forever, eventually you'll have to let it free and make it's own decisions. Assuming there is a God (which I do believe) he gave us free will to shape our own lives and destiny. If I start hanging out with the Crips and get shot. Can I really blame God for that?

Do you see where I'm going with this?


-God didn't teach us to swim

-sin doesn't have nothing to do with the question, its putting you who raised the rabbit, god that created us. making earthquake is said to the the act of god that made a tsunami to down people. you drown the rabbit by tossing it into a river.

-God standing by and waiting to see what happens is the same as you throwing the rabbit in and doing nothing.


1. I hope you literally don't mean swim and mean it as a metaphor.

Assuming you mean it as a metaphor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments Seems like God had an overall plan on teaching us how to "swim"

2. Ever think that maybe the earthquake was caused by the plates shifting in the ground and not God? I for one don't side with the religious nuts saying it was an act of God. I'm more of a believer of God lets nature play out by itself.

Furthermore how can a natural disaster be good or evil?

3. It's not the same in any way at all but ok.
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Re: japan tsunami

Postby Arnock » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:39 pm

In other news, radiation levels in Tokyo's water supply have dropped back to safe levels for infants to drink

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/ ... 0G20110324
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