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How can I explain this to make them understand?

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Re: How can I explain this to make them understand?

Postby Cascadian » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:17 pm

Shoju wrote:Yeah, not you. I know you listen. After I talked to him and got him to understand, we shared parses from raiding this week, as we both did halfus. The Damage taken is astoundingly different.

Our fight was 4:14.
I took 1665014 damage.

His fight was 4:29.
He took 2125031 damage.


So your friend took about 27% more damage than you did for roughly the same fight.
Your CTC is about 14% greater than his.

That is roughly in line with the difference in my damage taken versus that of our warrior tank who stacks expertise/stamina. My CTC is 11% greater than his and on most raids that are apple to apple comparisons, my damage taken is about 25% to 30% less than his.

Our healers, GM and Raid Leader were all completely sold on stacking Mastery, Parry and Dodge.
But the warrior tank says that Dodge is less important and he need to stack Expertise for threat.

They are all so fed up with his lack of listening that they are ready to just make him DPS and get another Pally Tank that would gear correctly.

Is there something about warrior tanks that makes them different from Pally Tanks? In general they seem to minimize Dodge and stack Expertise. I know Parry is better for warrior tanks to proc Hold the Line. But that doesn't seem like a valid reason to ignore Dodge and overall CTC in favor of stacking Expertise and/or Hit. I have searched EJ.com but cannot find anything about warrior tanks to explain this. Are these guys just wrong?
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Re: How can I explain this to make them understand?

Postby yappo » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:44 pm

A warrior can dial in 102.4 for ten seconds every thirty. Arguably that gives them some extra room to take excessive damage during the periods when healers fall asleep, in as much as there are any such periods to begin with.
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Re: How can I explain this to make them understand?

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:58 am

yappo wrote:A warrior can dial in 102.4 for ten seconds every thirty. Arguably that gives them some extra room to take excessive damage during the periods when healers fall asleep, in as much as there are any such periods to begin with.


A warrior can only do that if they are at 75%* passively.

*adjust for boss mobs.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: How can I explain this to make them understand?

Postby Syncognition » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:21 pm

Which is child's play. My warrior alt only has an average ilvl of 323 and his CTC is already 69.99 unbuffed.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/m ... ane/simple

The difference can be made up for by using divine protection proactively, so I don't really see it as imbalanced or broken. Warriors don't really gear any differently than paladins aside from a slight prioritization of parry over dodge due to Hold the Line (which is questionable anyway due to DR). EJ does have a very good Prot warrior thread which reads almost identically to any paladin FAQ on this site.

http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t110315-cat ... n_warrior/

If it is any help.
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Re: How can I explain this to make them understand?

Postby yappo » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:48 am

Flex wrote:
yappo wrote:A warrior can dial in 102.4 for ten seconds every thirty. Arguably that gives them some extra room to take excessive damage during the periods when healers fall asleep, in as much as there are any such periods to begin with.


A warrior can only do that if they are at 75%* passively.

*adjust for boss mobs.


Arguably a warr-tank shouldn't tank raids unless they're at 75% CTC ub.
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Re: How can I explain this to make them understand?

Postby Hokahey » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:05 am

Cascadian wrote:Our healers, GM and Raid Leader were all completely sold on stacking Mastery, Parry and Dodge.
But the warrior tank says that Dodge is less important and he need to stack Expertise for threat.

They are all so fed up with his lack of listening that they are ready to just make him DPS and get another Pally Tank that would gear correctly.

Is there something about warrior tanks that makes them different from Pally Tanks? In general they seem to minimize Dodge and stack Expertise. I know Parry is better for warrior tanks to proc Hold the Line. But that doesn't seem like a valid reason to ignore Dodge and overall CTC in favor of stacking Expertise and/or Hit. I have searched EJ.com but cannot find anything about warrior tanks to explain this. Are these guys just wrong?


To start, yes, your co-tank is just wrong. He shouldn't need threat stats any more than you do (arguably, he may need them less). He needs to put Vigilance on you and soak in that sweet, sweet, FREE Vengeance he gets from you being punched in the face. He needs to stop pursuing Expertise or Hit, and pursue Mastery and Avoidance. He needs to gear just like you. The days of "EH before all else, always" are over.

The problem is, this is the first time in a very VERY long time Warriors have ever gotten more benefit from picking up avoidance than just stacking Stamina and threat. The historical rhetoric of Avoidance being for complete morons (and Paladins :wink: ) probably makes it difficult to tell if someone advocating gearing that way isn't just a troll, or another clueless noob.

In BC, Avoidance and Block Rating had no value because Shield Block made the next 2 attacks against you Blocked. It lasted 6 seconds, and could be refreshed every 5. The only time Avoidance mattered was in the period between when your charges were used up and the cooldown on Shield Block came up again. The only times that typically became worrisome on raid bosses at the time were if they had an unusually fast swing speed (like Prince in Karazhan, Phase 2), or parry haste. Plus, pushing toward being "uncrushable" was too costly in terms of lost survivability for Warriors. The removal of Crushing Blows from raid bosses was almost as much a buff to Warriors as it was to Druids, maybe more.

In Wrath, baseline avoidance values for all tanks was so high that its value was near meaningless. The only encounter I can think if where Warriors valued block rating heavily was tanking adds on Anub'Arak. Even though baseline avoidance was still high, stacking enough avoidance/Block Rating to become "Block capped" was still impractical for generalized tanking.

yappo wrote:
Flex wrote:
yappo wrote:A warrior can dial in 102.4 for ten seconds every thirty. Arguably that gives them some extra room to take excessive damage during the periods when healers fall asleep, in as much as there are any such periods to begin with.


A warrior can only do that if they are at 75%* passively.

*adjust for boss mobs.


Arguably a warr-tank shouldn't tank raids unless they're at 75% CTC ub.


Granted. More importantly, Mastery remains quite good beyond that point, because the excess chance to Block during Shield Block becomes more chance to Crit. Block. There's no good reason to drop Mastery/Avoidance for threat right now.
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