4.1's tough talent choices

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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Yelena » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:15 am

Zibey wrote:I might also wonder about consecration talent, as I do happen to have quite many empty GCDs lately - esp. when tanking with SoI (which in turn provides me with enough mana for these more expensive fillers).

There is virtually zero need to use Consecration on single targets, even if one has the mana to support casting it. If threat is so tight otherwise, then there likely is something else wrong in the situation. As far as multiple targets; unless you're trying to hold aggro on several casters, Sanctuary returns negate most of the mana savings benefit the Hallowed Ground talent provides within a few seconds anyway.

Just because a GCD is empty doesn't necessarily mean it absolutely must be filled, simply for the sake of filling it.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Zibey » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:28 am

I am not a fan of concept that if we don't necesarily need something, we shouldn't do it to improve our performance. I would understand if you said we don't need HG, but not to use consecration? Really?

I do use consecration because I can do it (I am back at 100% mana before I can use another cons when tanking with SoI), and because it does improve my dps/tps slightly, and on aoe packs I find it to be really helpful - esp. that as our gearing is now I sometimes miss even 3 HotRs in a row, which more often than not results in deaths.

I don't really get what happened to tankadin community - back in the day we were damn happy to increase our performance by 0,5% - could sit for hours figuring it out, and now it all sounds very "meh, cba". Why would you not use small improvement that doesn't cost you?
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Halnoth » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:46 am

Zibey wrote:I am not a fan of concept that if we don't necesarily need something, we shouldn't do it to improve our performance. I would understand if you said we don't need HG, but not to use consecration? Really?

I do use consecration because I can do it (I am back at 100% mana before I can use another cons when tanking with SoI), and because it does improve my dps/tps slightly, and on aoe packs I find it to be really helpful - esp. that as our gearing is now I sometimes miss even 3 HotRs in a row, which more often than not results in deaths.

I don't really get what happened to tankadin community - back in the day we were damn happy to increase our performance by 0,5% - could sit for hours figuring it out, and now it all sounds very "meh, cba". Why would you not use small improvement that doesn't cost you?


Why would you use your mana on cons when you can use it on holy rad? Hell if you really want your dmg up why are you using SoL in the first place over SoV? I find cons to be near worthless, heck the mana would be better served to off heal in a tight situation on a tank swap fight over cons. Its not really a matter of .5% more tps/dps. It is simply that the spell is not overly good in any situation including aoe.

I guess the meat of what I'm trying to say here is that your arguement makes no sense, if you are concerned with maximizing tps/dps why aren't you simply using SoV? The statement that you have enough mana to caste cons with SoL up is conflicting. I realize the real reason you have SoL up is for self healing but that as well should be a moot point with any reasonable healer in any situation, so we are left with mana gains and tps boost from cons. Thus, your statement is conflicting.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:21 am

Zibey wrote:I am not a fan of concept that if we don't necesarily need something, we shouldn't do it to improve our performance. I would understand if you said we don't need HG, but not to use consecration? Really?

I do use consecration because I can do it (I am back at 100% mana before I can use another cons when tanking with SoI), and because it does improve my dps/tps slightly, and on aoe packs I find it to be really helpful - esp. that as our gearing is now I sometimes miss even 3 HotRs in a row, which more often than not results in deaths.

I don't really get what happened to tankadin community - back in the day we were damn happy to increase our performance by 0,5% - could sit for hours figuring it out, and now it all sounds very "meh, cba". Why would you not use small improvement that doesn't cost you?


Vengeance.

Seriously. When using Consecration vs. not using Consecration is irrelevant for threat against a single target, it becomes a bit of a moot point. It's a bit of a shame, really.

That said, it seems that this is a design goal. It's been mentioned by several blue posts already that they think tanks have enough to do already, so they don't want to make holding threat a difficult task.

Which puts your question in a different light. You're defining "performance" as "DPS." They're defining a tanks "performance" as "position/maneuver the boss, don't stand in fire, use cooldowns to react to predictable events and unpredictable bursts, pick up and control adds, use utility (DG, HR) to help the raid survive dangerous situations." So the question becomes, "is a tank's DPS really a useful measure of his performance?" At least in Blizzard's perspective, and to some degree I agree with them given the environment we're currently in, it isn't. I'd take a tank who reacts well and uses cooldowns effectively over a tank that ekes out another 1% DPS.

As an aside, if you're that concerned about your DPS you wouldn't be running SoI. You'd switch to SoT, in which case you wouldn't have the mana to cast Consecration on cooldown. Thus, Cons is a weak DPS gain against single targets while running SoI, but probably a loss if running SoT due to mana constraints.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Malthrax » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:55 am

theckhd wrote:They're defining a tanks "performance" as "position/maneuver the boss, don't stand in fire, use cooldowns to react to predictable events and unpredictable bursts, pick up and control adds, use utility (DG, HR) to help the raid survive dangerous situations."


- position/maneuver the boss
- don't stand in fire
- use cooldowns to react to predictable events and unpredictable bursts
- pick up and control adds
- use utility to help the raid survive dangerous situations

Only 2 of the above 5 items could be considered "unique" to Tanking, and one of those (pick up and control adds) can typically be performed by both tanks and non-tanks alike, depending on the exact encounter mechanics.

The only task in that list that is solely a tanking responsibility is to position/maneuver the boss. Since "generating enough threat to not impede DPS" is no longer an issue, thanks to Vengeance, I feel this leaves the act of tanking a bit wanting.

I'm bored with it. :(
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:02 am

I don't disagree, just saying that seems to be their perspective. And like I said, given the triviality of threat right now, I'd have to agree that tank DPS isn't a very important performance metric anymore.

If Vengeance's effect were halved or so, it might be a bit more interesting.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Arizair » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:42 am

JotJ is kind of bad on some fights where others can apply debuffs and I know i hated not being able to slow all add attacks on maloriak 10H but is it better to have a tiny seal of truth damage increase or a shorter hoj cd to skip it though?
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Zibey » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:55 am

You're defining "performance" as "DPS." They're defining a tanks "performance" as "position/maneuver the boss, don't stand in fire, use cooldowns to react to predictable events and unpredictable bursts, pick up and control adds, use utility (DG, HR) to help the raid survive dangerous situations." So the question becomes, "is a tank's DPS really a useful measure of his performance?" At least in Blizzard's perspective, and to some degree I agree with them given the environment we're currently in, it isn't. I'd take a tank who reacts well and uses cooldowns effectively over a tank that ekes out another 1% DPS.


You got it wrong then. I do not define our performance as dps - but I still count dps as one of the factors. And I ask - if we lose nothing by filling empty gcd with cons, why not do that (that's what I am talking about in the post you quoted)? Because we don't have to? Hell - I probably don't have to use judgement at all to keep aggro, or for anything basicaly, should I stop using it as well?

Why is that conversation even going? You guys honestly plan to fight for "not using consecration in empty gcd"? Why exactly? I may have missed something important about it that makes it so much undesirable as a filler.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:40 pm

Zibey wrote:
You're defining "performance" as "DPS." They're defining a tanks "performance" as "position/maneuver the boss, don't stand in fire, use cooldowns to react to predictable events and unpredictable bursts, pick up and control adds, use utility (DG, HR) to help the raid survive dangerous situations." So the question becomes, "is a tank's DPS really a useful measure of his performance?" At least in Blizzard's perspective, and to some degree I agree with them given the environment we're currently in, it isn't. I'd take a tank who reacts well and uses cooldowns effectively over a tank that ekes out another 1% DPS.


You got it wrong then. I do not define our performance as dps - but I still count dps as one of the factors. And I ask - if we lose nothing by filling empty gcd with cons, why not do that (that's what I am talking about in the post you quoted)? Because we don't have to? Hell - I probably don't have to use judgement at all to keep aggro, or for anything basicaly, should I stop using it as well?

Why is that conversation even going? You guys honestly plan to fight for "not using consecration in empty gcd"? Why exactly? I may have missed something important about it that makes it so much undesirable as a filler.


Because using Consecration takes up so much mana that I can't cast other, more important things, in the next several GCDs because of it. At least that's my reason.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:46 pm

Zibey wrote:Why is that conversation even going? You guys honestly plan to fight for "not using consecration in empty gcd"? Why exactly? I may have missed something important about it that makes it so much undesirable as a filler.


In order to use consecration you pretty much have to be running SoL. If you want to increase your T/DPS, you're better off running SoT, in which case you won't have the mana for consecration to fill your empty GCDs anyway.

Unless all you're trying to do is plug empty GCDs, Cons isn't the best way to go.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:57 pm

Zibey wrote:Why is that conversation even going? You guys honestly plan to fight for "not using consecration in empty gcd"? Why exactly? I may have missed something important about it that makes it so much undesirable as a filler.


At what point did I ever make that argument? If you have an empty GCD and have the mana to cast Consecration then great, do it. If you're running SoI, then that's likely your situation.

The point is that Consecration costs a lot of mana, and if you're not running SoI you're potentially putting yourself OOM by using it, which locks you out of other, more important spells.

In other words, using Consecration because you have an empty GCD can be a net DPS loss if it forces you to skip other things (CS, AS, hell I've even screwed myself out of mana badly enough that I couldn't cast Judgement at least once or twice). And even if that's not the case, and it's a DPS gain, it's a worthless DPS gain if it means you can't use a raid utility spell when the encounter demands it.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Yelena » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:49 pm

theckhd wrote:At what point did I ever make that argument? If you have an empty GCD and have the mana to cast Consecration then great, do it. If you're running SoI, then that's likely your situation.

The point is that Consecration costs a lot of mana, and if you're not running SoI you're potentially putting yourself OOM by using it, which locks you out of other, more important spells.

In other words, using Consecration because you have an empty GCD can be a net DPS loss if it forces you to skip other things (CS, AS, hell I've even screwed myself out of mana badly enough that I couldn't cast Judgement at least once or twice). And even if that's not the case, and it's a DPS gain, it's a worthless DPS gain if it means you can't use a raid utility spell when the encounter demands it.

This pretty much sums it up.

Zibey wrote:Why is that conversation even going? You guys honestly plan to fight for "not using consecration in empty gcd"? Why exactly? I may have missed something important about it that makes it so much undesirable as a filler.

Even if the Hallowed Ground talent were taken to negate the mana concerns, which is one of the main driving points within the debate, the talent tradeoff to pick it up generally isn't worth it.

When you consider the rune cost of the DK equivalent, Death and Decay, the untalented mana cost of Consecration is appropriate (if prohibitive). On the same token, I generally don't see them using D&D on cooldown either, and pretty much never on single targets, outside of situations of establishing initial aggro on a fresh add as it spawns or runs in; even then there are other tools which accomplish the same task with less cost, in many cases.

Using it exclusively for more damage is pointless. Putting yourself in a situation to cast it on cooldown generally means you're using Seal of Insight, when Seal of Truth will do far more damage both in short term and overall, if damage is that much of a concern. I've seen my fair share of wipes where the boss was very low health, nothing thus far in this expansion which could have been made up by casting Consecration on cooldown however. Outside of extreme outlier cases, tank damage alone isn't going to determine the result of an encounter, the pendulum shifts a lot more based on how good the play from your DPS is. If the belief that tank damage is important to an encounter, I'd start taking a look at what the DPS are/aren't doing, and see what else is going south in an attempt.

Using it simply to fill an empty GCD is also unnecessary. It has been established in several threads that the damage contribution from the ability doesn't make a difference one way or the other. The threat contribution also isn't going to make a difference, if it is then something else is likely very wrong in what you're doing. Using it just to use it isn't that far different than spending money just because it's burning a hole in your pocket, it becomes a problem when you find yourself without the money (mana) to spend on things which have a noticeable and tangible impact on the outcome.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby PsiVen » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:17 am

With 1/2 Hallowed Ground, it is very hard to run yourself OOM casting the occasional Consecration in an empty GCD, even when using Seal of Truth and Holy Radiance on cooldown. That's precisely why I take the talent, and the utility of nearly always being able to cast Consecration freely outweighs any other talent choice.

With regard to the first item in the OP, I would never consider such a spec as I consider Pursuit of Justice mandatory above all others, which explains why I have never heard of Last Word ;)
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:15 am

PsiVen wrote:With 1/2 Hallowed Ground, it is very hard to run yourself OOM casting the occasional Consecration in an empty GCD, even when using Seal of Truth and Holy Radiance on cooldown. That's precisely why I take the talent, and the utility of nearly always being able to cast Consecration freely outweighs any other talent choice.

With regard to the first item in the OP, I would never consider such a spec as I consider Pursuit of Justice mandatory above all others, which explains why I have never heard of Last Word ;)


Except that, even if you're being generous, that 1 point is at most worth about 200 DPS against single targets. That's still behind Reckoning, WotL, and Sacred Duty (assuming you're not wogging). It's ahead of SotP and Grand Crusader, but you're probably not specced SotP anyhow and Grand Crusader has similar utility value. So there are already better DPS options in the prot tree, and unless you give up survivability talents you don't have enough leftover to pick up HG.

It's also ahead of Crusade and Rule of Law, though if you consider PoJ mandatory then Crusade isn't optional. You could drop RoL and go more than 31 points in prot, I suppose, though the healing bonus to RoL is worth something. And each point of RoL is 170 DPS, so the gain would be pretty small since 200 is likely an over-estimate for HG.
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Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:06 am

theckhd wrote:
PsiVen wrote:With 1/2 Hallowed Ground, it is very hard to run yourself OOM casting the occasional Consecration in an empty GCD, even when using Seal of Truth and Holy Radiance on cooldown. That's precisely why I take the talent, and the utility of nearly always being able to cast Consecration freely outweighs any other talent choice.

With regard to the first item in the OP, I would never consider such a spec as I consider Pursuit of Justice mandatory above all others, which explains why I have never heard of Last Word ;)


Except that, even if you're being generous, that 1 point is at most worth about 200 DPS against single targets. That's still behind Reckoning, WotL, and Sacred Duty (assuming you're not wogging). It's ahead of SotP and Grand Crusader, but you're probably not specced SotP anyhow and Grand Crusader has similar utility value. So there are already better DPS options in the prot tree, and unless you give up survivability talents you don't have enough leftover to pick up HG.


Not to mention if you unglyph AS, GC might be worth a lot more on 2-5 mob situations... probably losing out as #mobs increases

As for points... my current playing around shows if you skip EG/HoJ/GbtL, you have to put 1 point in HG... (I'm still deciding if i want EG... and if 1 point in GbtL is worth it)
I suppose those 3 are considered "Survivability" talents though ;-)
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