4.1's tough talent choices

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 pm

A few things you may want to consider.

1) Rule of Law vs Last Word

Why? With the increased minimum time between wogging, and the inability to cast back to back WoGs, Rule of Law loses a little of its thrill. Especially when compared to a low health life saving crit. Also, going with a Last Word build allows you to pick up both Reckoning and Grand Crusader easily, which brings me to my next point of interest.

2) Reckoning vs Grand Crusader

Many of us drop a point from one of these to get Divine Guardian. At 2% hit and 10 expertise, dropping a point from GC reduces the probability of GC proccing in 3 crusader strikes by 18.34%. I'd also *assume* that GC-procced AS are better than HoW in execute range.

Where will this rank GC against Reckoning for single target? Only time will tell. Or Theck.
User avatar
Jeremoot
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby theckhd » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:43 am

I don't particularly care for Last Word. I think the 15% crit from Rule of Law is more effective than 60% crit under the specific circumstance that I'm below 35% health. For the most part, I'm not waiting until 35% to cast WoG, I'm using it reactively any time I drop below 50-60% or when I know a healer's going to be moving. RoL is also a potent threat/aoe talent, so I doubt the cooldown on WoG will make Last Word that much more attractive.

With Holy Power on Grand Crusader procs, I expect Grand Crusader's value to increase significantly. I'm not sure if it'll be enough to eclipse Reckoning, but the sims will clarify that well before 4.1 hits live servers, so it's not worth stressing about.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7849
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Koatanga » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:57 am

The way I see it, GC can help to assure you have 3 holy power for a well-timed WoG, while reckoning is just just a redundant threat ability. Easy choice for me.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1988
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:39 pm

Koatanga wrote:reckoning is just just a redundant threat ability.


What is the effect of Reckoning on WindWalk procs, I wonder?
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Linkie » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:27 pm

theckhd wrote:I don't particularly care for Last Word. I think the 15% crit from Rule of Law is more effective than 60% crit under the specific circumstance that I'm below 35% health. For the most part, I'm not waiting until 35% to cast WoG, I'm using it reactively any time I drop below 50-60% or when I know a healer's going to be moving. RoL is also a potent threat/aoe talent, so I doubt the cooldown on WoG will make Last Word that much more attractive.

With Holy Power on Grand Crusader procs, I expect Grand Crusader's value to increase significantly. I'm not sure if it'll be enough to eclipse Reckoning, but the sims will clarify that well before 4.1 hits live servers, so it's not worth stressing about.


You'd also have to give up the 15% speedboost of Pursuit of Justice and get a sub-par enchant for an 8% speedboost instead.
Linkie
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:26 am

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby tlitp » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:10 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:What is the effect of Reckoning on WindWalk procs, I wonder?

Default gear set (avg. ilvl 359), WoG-based framework (2/2 EG) with CS as HPG :
Code: Select all
ph=physical hit (%)
exp=expertise (skill)
ww.dodge=time-averaged (bonus) dodge chance (%)

              ww.dodge@2/2Reck   ww.dodge@0/2Reck
ph=0,exp=0      0.7929             0.7272
ph=8,exp=0      0.8615             0.7913
ph=8,exp=26     0.9467             0.8689
User avatar
tlitp
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:42 pm

Thank you tlitp. That is surprising.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Téuntjûh » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:34 am

I'm still wondering why I never hear anyone talking about dropping <Judgements of the Just> and Vindication.
I believe these are very nice talents for 10 mans, but in de 25 mans I'm raiding we always got other classes which apply these buffs. This makes the talents useless? Or am I missing something.
Image
Téuntjûh
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:47 am

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Fetzie » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:00 am

Téuntjûh wrote:I'm still wondering why I never hear anyone talking about dropping <Judgements of the Just> and Vindication.
I believe these are very nice talents for 10 mans, but in de 25 mans I'm raiding we always got other classes which apply these buffs. This makes the talents useless? Or am I missing something.


What if they die?
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2196
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Téuntjûh » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:07 am

They don't. Normally we got 1 - 2 people dead @ the end of a fight.
Buffs stay up whole fight 95% fights.
Téuntjûh
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:47 am

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:24 am

1) It doesn't cost us a GCD to apply these buffs, they get put up automatically as part of our rotation. Most (every?) other class has to spend a GCD to put up at least one of the two.
2) Redundancy is a good thing in case people die. Being self-sufficient is always nice.
3) What else would you take?
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7849
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Blackharon » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:25 am

theckhd wrote:1) It doesn't cost us a GCD to apply these buffs, they get put up automatically as part of our rotation. Most (every?) other class has to spend a GCD to put up at least one of the two.
2) Redundancy is a good thing in case people die. Being self-sufficient is always nice.
3) What else would you take?


Adds to the list:
4) Most fights come with adds. What if your debuffer is on another target
The Cat's out of the bag!
Pickpawcket for iPhone and iPad
http://www.pickpawcket.com
User avatar
Blackharon
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:48 am
Location: Montreal Canada

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:03 am

Another good point. There are a number of situations where you may be tanking mobs away from the rest of the group (Omnitron, Magmaw HC, Maloriak HC, Nefarian, Council of the Four Winds, Al'akir, V&T HC(?), Cho'gall). Especially on heroic modes, it doesn't make sense to force another player to lose DPS time on the boss to do something you're perfectly capable of by speccing properly.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7849
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Jeremoot » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:27 pm

Generally I feel if I CAN bring a buff to the raid, I should, especially when they're buffs that I can automatically apply without thinking about.
User avatar
Jeremoot
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: 4.1's tough talent choices

Postby Zibey » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:38 am

The only change to my build I am concidering is moving one point from Reckoning to GC. I might also wonder about consecration talent, as I do happen to have quite many empty GCDs lately - esp. when tanking with SoI (which in turn provides me with enough mana for these more expensive fillers). I dont really know where to take them from, so I dont think I will ever go for it.

So yeach - if we talk tough choices, reck vs. GC seems like the only one, and it should be resolved with sims.
Gniev - The Maelstrom EU
User avatar
Zibey
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 6:04 am

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest