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10 vs 25 difficulty

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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:20 am

The raid cooldown issue is going to be alleviated in 4.1 with two new raid cooldowns being introduced (one for warriors, one for shamans).
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Gab » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:38 am

Although you could argue that 4.1 is going to compound the problem by making raid cooldowns 3 minutes instead of 2.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:19 pm

I'd imagine that most raid groups with only 1 raid cooldown are now going to have 3. 4 if you count tranquility, since it is also being given a shortened cooldown.

edit: Humorously enough, our raid will have 5 raid cooldowns in 4.1.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby PsiVen » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:06 pm

I feel a little weird that warriors and paladins now have raid CD parity with healers, but not the other tanks. Is feral tranquility supposed to be the equivalent? DK battle rez?
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Vort » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:55 pm

All it does is trivialize 25 man content for being able to stack more than one Raid Cooldown when you need it. 10 man still gets shafted in a way, if you don't run with a regular group that consists of the new raid cd's then blizz is pretty much saying tough luck. Our raid RARELY consists of a druid resto or not, we don't run with a resto shaman, granted we run with 2 warriors but still. Blizz actually needs to adjust the level of raid aoe damage in 10 mans to be at least EQUAL with 25 man content. Chim is a really classic example, the slime ends up doing like 5-7k more every hit to the raid during Fueds.

Bleh, let's hope they at least balance some of the new cooldowns out.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:34 pm

Vort wrote:All it does is trivialize 25 man content for being able to stack more than one Raid Cooldown when you need it. 10 man still gets shafted in a way, if you don't run with a regular group that consists of the new raid cd's then blizz is pretty much saying tough luck. Our raid RARELY consists of a druid resto or not, we don't run with a resto shaman, granted we run with 2 warriors but still. Blizz actually needs to adjust the level of raid aoe damage in 10 mans to be at least EQUAL with 25 man content. Chim is a really classic example, the slime ends up doing like 5-7k more every hit to the raid during Fueds.

Bleh, let's hope they at least balance some of the new cooldowns out.

There comes a time when you have to realize that, if you are running a heroic 10-man raid, you need to bring a good composition. If you can't manage a good composition, you can't do some heroic fights. That's just a fact of current heroic raiding. You might be able to go back to heroic tier 11 once you're geared in tier 12 gear, but, until then, start recruiting or have your players learn their offspecs.

Current heroic raiding requires at least two raid cooldowns. Divine sacrifice, aura mastery, PW: Barrier... these 3, imo, should be standard in every raid comp.

If you aren't willing to put heroic effort into your raids, you won't get heroic results. This includes, unfortunately, recruiting/leveling new characters. I don't like it any more than you, but I understand that the content can't be challenging without it.

I said it earlier and I'll say it again: The cooldown changes are going to have a net result of most raids having more cooldown coverage than they do now. I think it'll be very rare for raids to have less coverage as a result. Hell, your raid is going to get two more from your warriors. That, alone, is an improvement. And you do have access to a shaman, from the sound of it... if they learn how to play resto, you get yet another cooldown.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Vort » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:49 pm

Our shaman isn't 100% and he's Ele, we rarely even have a druid in the raid, we use 2 priests, one holy and one disc.

Our normal raid comp is

Prot Paladin
Holy Paladin
Prot Warrior
Fury Warrior
Frost Death Knight
Warlock (switches spec for fights)
Fire Mage
Holy Priest
Disc Priest
Survival Hunter

My complaint is less about 10 man getting a buff to it and more about 25, they already have the options to stack more raid CD's and 4.1 just makes it trivial and 25 will have multiple cooldowns for each raid aoe whereas 10 only scrapes through right now. Like I pointed out on heroic Chim, 10 takes more damage from slime in feud than 25. Why though?
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:22 pm

Aside from RNG and raid cooldowns, 25-man takes the same damage from Caustic Slimes in the feud phase as 10-man does. I just scoured the logs of one of our kills and the top 25-man guild on our server. I found a feud where our hunter took a little over 10k damage and I found a feud where their hunter took a little over 10k damage.

The numbers will never be even because of the possibility of stacking additional raid cooldowns, but the damage appears to be very similar/the same to me.

Could you provide a WoL report for your most recent kill?
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Vort » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:48 pm

WoL not working from work machine, I'll try when I get home tonight or just post the one when we kill chim on sunday.

I had a thought and figured it might be due to the 25 having more raid cd's for slimes, so I did the napkin maths and I'm pretty sure the raid stacking compositions that I've looked at logs for do indeed take less damage due to raid cooldowns.

Looks something like this.

10m = 235200 x 2 spread over 9 targets for 52266 unmodified damage per raid member.
25m = 270480 x 5 spread over 24 targets for 56350 unmodified damage per raid member.

Yet all the logs I browsed had very consistent damage of under 40k per volley in 25m. In 10m I noticed the damage was always above 40k per volley.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Sagedin » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:11 pm

Isn't the Caustic Slime distributed amongst pets as well? If it is, this could explain the difference as 25 man in general will have more pets.

Still I continue to find it weird that almost every discussion about cooldowns comes down to someone mentioning how a 25 man can stack these, while a 10 man will get the shaft. Unless I am mistaken, raiding with 25 people not magically gives you 250 toons that you can switch and combine to get the best set-up.

I feel people really need to step away from the perceived entitlement that any random 10 players should be able to clear hard fights. There is a reason 25 man guilds recruit specific classes and not just dps/healer/tank. I fail to see how having to take the composition of your raid somewhat into account is considered such a huge requirement (especially for heroic modes). While I agree there should be a broad range of possibilities, I do not believe any composition should be as good as to do that would result in quite dull encounters.

Also in regards of 25 man being able to stack more cooldowns, this will depends on how the healing classes will be balanced. Assuming druid and shaman cooldowns will be balanced against the priest and paladin ones, new encounters should be designed with the expectation there are twice (assuming 3 vs 6 healers) as many of these cooldowns available for 25 mans. It will actually make it easier for Blizzard as they don't need to design the encounters against the possibility of raids that stack the classes with cooldowns, making those same encounters close to impossible for raids that do not have the deep character pool to stack.


Personally I would have preferred if Blizzard had gone a different direction and reduced the potency of the current raid wide cooldowns Prot paladins, Holy paladins and Disc priests bring and make them a benefit not a necessity on several of the current heroic fights.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Dravan » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:42 am

Aside from making every class in the game the same with all the same abilities, I don't really see how they are meant to address this problem other than what they have done. Maybe 10 man sucks because you have to stack classes more, but 25 puts you at more risk of people making mistakes, disconnecting or just not showing up. I can understand it must be frustrating though for people who want to play their classes and it means you lack things you require to complete the encounter, then again having a good coverage for raid cooldowns with the added ones in 4.1 surely can't be that hard. No more difficult than covering all the raid buffs currently is in 10.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:56 am

The obvious solution is to have every raid CD apply a 3 minute "Don't Buff Me Bro" debuff.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby superworm » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:25 am

fuzzygeek wrote:The obvious solution is to have every raid CD apply a 3 minute "Don't Buff Me Bro" debuff.


Yeah I think this is a good idea. However, even without raid CDs, some classes still have advantages in particular fights.
Take Chimaeron for example. Holy priests are really OP here in raid healing. With enough SP, 1 PoH alone can get 5 people above 10k. If you take 4 holy priests, you can safely assign other healers to watch the tanks, while the 4 priests heal 4 groups. And Light Well really shines in raid healing during feud.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Strendarr » Mon May 09, 2011 9:48 am

Sorry, just to chime in on this subject months later...

Our guild was 10 man only for the start of cata. We got to 7/13 heroic and then switched to 25 man because we had many apps and there wasn't a true 25 man progression guild on our faction/server. Now that we've started doing 25's, I can say this with 90% certainty:

10 man normal modes are easier than 25.

25 man heroic modes are easier than 10.

"herding cats" as people say will always be harder with more people on easier content, ie normal modes.

Tightly tuned X (raid damage, healing, multiple raid roles) will always be easier with more people. 25 mans have extra cd's, extra people to do specialized roles without hurting raid dps as much, extra everything. They're far more flexible. Changing roles in a 10 man makes a significant difference to how fast things will die or healing throughput.

So basically for guilds that don't have a full solid roster who can do heroic modes, 10 man is the way to go. For guilds that do, 25 man all the way.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby exiledknight » Mon May 09, 2011 12:18 pm

Really interesting to read input from someone who has done progression on both, I think your post is well worth chiming in months later.
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