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Prot PVP @ 85

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:44 pm

I partnered with a hunter for a month or so when I started up cata arenas. Sadly I think hunters are pretty much the worst class in pvp right now. I have yet to meet one, even good ones, that I had a hard time with. If they are kiting me, I have the pet as a battery while I get to them.

On the other side of the coin, they don't have the burst damage they used to. Its very easy to get in their dead zone where their melee skills have been destroyed. They just aren't threating to another class thats attacking them back.

My (old) partner was pretty much usless if he got focused no matter what I did to help him. We usually won if we could burst (ha!) down someone before he died or left them low enough I could get them before CD's came back up.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:58 pm

Kelaan wrote:Agreed on the potential for Zealotry + WoG, though. /shiver. Calvin and I have nearly never lost to a team with a Ret paladin, though -- probably because all the skilled ones have gone to higher rating brackets? :D


Nah, they're all playing Prot!

I haven't tried 2's with a Hunter so I'm not sure on what they're strengths are like when paired with a Prot Paladin. I've done games with Warlock/Spriest/Frost Mage at the 1800 bracket before and they all seem to work quite well. Like I said though, the best partner has some self sufficiency. The Blood DK thing was initially a joke, we never actually thought we could get to the rating we're at. I've also found WoG to be my biggest finisher for holy power, in almost ALL situations. If there is a DPS focusing my DK and I'm on the healer then I'll liberally use WoG on my partner. This lets him stack necrotic strikes instead of Death Striking.

I've healed for about 200k in the span of 15 seconds due to Zealotry/Divine Purpose. It's a filthy mechanic for WoG spam, that's a major concern. If they made threat matter and scaled back the way ret can spam WoG randomly in PVP then I think the 20 second cooldown would be completely abolished.

I'm going to start PVPing Ret in 3's this weekend but still speccing PVP prot each week to see if we can jump over 2300. Problem is I need to regem a fair bit or else I'm squishy by comparison.

I forgot one piece of advice that I pretty much liberally follow for 2's. Charge in and Hammer someone almost as soon as you can, even if you're going to run away there is a good chance people will assume you're Ret and blow their PVP trinket Immediately. My other comment would be on SoT, no argument that it's the best DPS seal but does it ever conflict with your partners Trap? Would SoR be more beneficial since you could swap targets that way? I used to do 3's in BC with a hunter when I played MS warrior and we had to be very careful of Deep Wounds for traps.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:30 pm

Sonic wrote:They just aren't threating to another class thats attacking them back.

This may be why we seem to have luck when I and my partner are both beating on the healer, despite him taking damage. If he can kite, awesome, but the healer is rarely in his deadzone, and often his snares/silences help me kill the healer.

Vort wrote:... the best partner has some self sufficiency.

Agreed! This is part of why I keep Divine Guardian: 6 seconds of cooldown on my partner. (It's pretty miniscule.)

Charge in and Hammer someone almost as soon as you can, even if you're going to run away there is a good chance people will assume you're Ret and blow their PVP trinket Immediately.

What else would they use their PvP trinket on? The snare from AS? (I normally do that first so I can use it again once GC procs.) I guess it opens them up to other things that my partner can apply.

Does {Seal of Truth} ever conflict with your partners Trap? Would SoR be more beneficial since you could swap targets that way?

YES IT DOES. >_< We communicate a bit more now, though, and he usually is trapping the other target. I hadn't thought about SoR, though - is the damage similar? If I'm not glyphing for expertise, how different is the damage? Frankly, I usually like having the DoT to break stealth on people, but it ultimately comes down to numbers I can apply to reducing their health, and I'd use SoR if it were better.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:36 pm

Kelaan wrote:What else would they use their PvP trinket on? The snare from AS? (I normally do that first so I can use it again once GC procs.) I guess it opens them up to other things that my partner can apply.


Most PVPers save the trinket for something they NEED to break, if you force a break early it means the next HoJ they won't have a break for and it could be when they're at 50% hp rather than 100%. I know I usually save my trinket for something vital rather than something trivial. If I get HoJ'd in PVP I'll usually eat it unless there is a chance of death for myself or my partner. People often see a paladin with low mana and assume they're Ret and as soon as the hammer goes off they trinket because they expect massive burst damage coming. This messes up the timing they have on their trinkets as you'll get two consecutive HoJ's with no breaks. From there you can either push with HoJ off cooldown to push them further on the back foot, or you can save it for things like Aura Mastery.

Kelaan wrote:I hadn't thought about SoR, though - is the damage similar? If I'm not glyphing for expertise, how different is the damage?


I'm at work right now so I can't do the exact testing with my setup. But I'm pretty sure there is a numbers value somewhere around. I know it's less overall damage than SoT, but it's certainly an alternative if it breaks CC.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:42 pm

SoR has higher judment damage vs non-stacked Truth and it's also going to be less after the 5 stack on hit also. Truth is better overall but it's decent damage if you don't need the extra healing. I can't imagine you NOT needing extra healing in a double dps setup though.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:02 pm

Sonic wrote:SoR has higher judment damage vs non-stacked Truth and it's also going to be less after the 5 stack on hit also. Truth is better overall but it's decent damage if you don't need the extra healing. I can't imagine you NOT needing extra healing in a double dps setup though.


This is the reason why I run almost exclusively with SoI and have it glyphed. I very VERY rarely switch to SoT, and the only other seal I find myself using is Justice as the debuff is critical to catch druids and shamans. SoR is the second highest DPS seal we have, Truth being way ahead of everything else, but Righteousness being well above Justice and the non damaging Insight.

Also keep in mind if you aren't being attacked by melee that you're going to go OOM if you spam all of your abilities off cd. This is why I like to keep insight up rather than anything else if possible. It tops me up from AoE damage and keeps my mana at maximum if I need to spam FoL for whatever reason. Radiance costs a LOT of mana but shouldn't be neglected since it's around 10k HP for yourself and your partner if they're close enough.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:03 am

Sonic wrote:I can't imagine you NOT needing extra healing in a double dps setup though.

If I can't push enough damage out to net a kill before it's 2v1 (or shortly thereafter), healing doesn't help me much. I'll swap to SoI later in the fight, but since it's almost 10% of my damage on a single target it's tempting to use it even then. It depends a lot on my opponents, I guess. If I get focused first, defensive cooldowns + an unmolested hunter means that we get a kill relatively quickly. If my hunter gets focused, I'm not taking enough damage to warrant SoI right now.

At higher brackets it will likely change. However, I'm noticing it in 3v3 also. We can't push out enough damage with just me + hunter, a lot of the time, and I haven't seemed to be able to heal enough to matter. Our disc priest went shadow and our win rate doubled (1/10 to 1/5 ;)). Our best matches were when I was able to get a healer low, force a trinket with a HoJ (plus low health), and then do it again later with wings up. I also noticed kiting healers a LOT more in 3s, so Windwalk is even more tempting - I just can't yet justify the expenditure. :(

edit:
Great point about radiance's costs and merits. My partner rarely seems to be close enough for it to work, but I still forget to use it. I normaly cast DG first, and heals later. FoL seems to not work well for me - by the time I can cast it once or twice, my partner's basically taken as much damage as I healed. Would divine light be better? (Soo slooowwww.) I'll have to macro them together so that I can use a modifier to pick which one I'm using.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Kelaan wrote:Great point about radiance's costs and merits. My partner rarely seems to be close enough for it to work, but I still forget to use it. I normaly cast DG first, and heals later. FoL seems to not work well for me - by the time I can cast it once or twice, my partner's basically taken as much damage as I healed. Would divine light be better? (Soo slooowwww.) I'll have to macro them together so that I can use a modifier to pick which one I'm using.


Which is why I use my holy power almost exclusively on WoG.

I have a macro that I hit religiously when my partner is getting focused.

/target Thqrxoxo
/cast Word of Glory
/targetlasttarget

WoG's my parter on my GCD, keeps my current target and lets me keep focus.

FoL is better HPS than Divine Light by MILES if you aren't specced for it, it's just less mana efficient.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:54 pm

Kelaan wrote: If I can't push enough damage out to net a kill before it's 2v1 (or shortly thereafter), healing doesn't help me much. I'll swap to SoI later in the fight, but since it's almost 10% of my damage on a single target it's tempting to use it even then. It depends a lot on my opponents, I guess. If I get focused first, defensive cooldowns + an unmolested hunter means that we get a kill relatively quickly. If my hunter gets focused, I'm not taking enough damage to warrant SoI right now.


Yeah whenever i was with my hunter partner he always got focued. His gear was meh so he was way to squishy. I've now been doing 2s with a affliction lock and disc priest. Mostly with the lock, alot of our matches have people splitting between us oddly enough.

Generally I find myself under fire more often than not though. Guess the people i run into hate prot paladins.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:50 pm

Sonic wrote:Generally I find myself under fire more often than not though. Guess the people i run into hate prot paladins.


A lot of people think you're ret just using a shield for defensive purposes. And it's great when the vengeance starts stacking up and you're able to WABLAM! SMASH THINGS GOOD!
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:43 am

Vort wrote:/target Thqrxoxo
/cast Word of Glory
/targetlasttarget


Can you rewrite that as /cast [@Thqrxoxo] Word of Glory ? It ought to prevent you from losing white hits on your current target with the target switch. (I may be barking up the wrong tree, if you don't actually lose the swings.)
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:16 am

Pretty sure I'm not getting white swing loss on my current target, it simply casts the WoG without any targeting changes from my end. I'll test on a dummy in a sec to confirm but I've used a similar macro since Vanilla to do this kind of thing and I haven't noticed a decrease in dps etc.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Levantine » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:42 pm

It does change your target and change it back, you just don't see it on screen because it's done instantly. I don't remember whether changing targets actually reset your swing timer, I don't think it does from memory. WoG used to, but doesn't anymore either.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:35 pm

I've been thinking about replacing my 2nd trinket. I've been using Badge and Insignia. Insignia is the weaker of the two. And once the patch hits with resilience scaling more linear its only a 3% loss to damage reductions.

Hurricane seems to be the best choice for raw damage but it costs a bloody fourtune. I have an herb gatherer and could have someone mill one out but the chance of getting the cards can drive you insane. There's also the thought of how long it will last. Ilvl scaling might simply outclass it next season.

I'm hoping for a ZG/ZA str trink but I highly doubt there will be one (data mining isn't finished yet). Wouldn't that be awesome though. A remade Zandalarian Hero Charm that has str and on use dmg boost. Stack it with badge and wings... 2minute prot paladins :p
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Central » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:35 am

Kelaan wrote:
Vort wrote:/target Thqrxoxo
/cast Word of Glory
/targetlasttarget


Can you rewrite that as /cast [@Thqrxoxo] Word of Glory ? It ought to prevent you from losing white hits on your current target with the target switch. (I may be barking up the wrong tree, if you don't actually lose the swings.)


you could also use @arenapartner1 in the event you run with someone else.

If you are changing targets you are probably losing white hits.
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