WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

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WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby frontallobe » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:10 am

Hi Guys,

I'm a 358 tank working on 11/12 and noticed on worldoflogs that I'm way below the average for DPS on many of the encounters. I know it's not that important since TPS isn't an issue and I'm geared / gemmed mostly for avoidance/block but I'm wondering if maybe my rotation just isn't up to snuff.

Magmaw
I open with Avenger's Shield then spam up crusader strike until 3 HP then shield bash. I do this until the dps goes to the adds then switch to judgement of light and start wog healing myself. That being said I still don't see how I am pulling 6k dps and the top tank is pulling 3x as much 18k dps.

Am I just doing much more survival tactics or am I missing something crucial? Are you guys crushing meters? I guess I'm always focused on easing the job of the healers and surviving. Is there value in pushing and extra 5-10k dps? thoughts?

Thanks,
Jay
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby Saler » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:14 am

With full vengeance, which comes quickly on Magmaw, you should certainly be doing more than 6k dps even with a WoG+Insight cycle. Are you using AS and/or HW/Consecrate on cooldown?
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby Epimer » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:29 am

frontallobe wrote:I open with Avenger's Shield then spam up crusader strike until 3 HP then shield bash. I do this until the dps goes to the adds then switch to judgement of light and start wog healing myself.


What are you doing in the GCDs in-between each Crusader Strike? If the answer is "nothing", then you should read up on the stickies in the Basic Training forum (and the Matlab thread in the Advanced Theorycrafting forum) about the basics of the rotation.
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby Anakhimel » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:29 am

Do you have a WoL report?
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby frontallobe » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:25 am

Here's my WoL from last night on Magmaw -- http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-k ... 073&e=6416

I'm definitely not keeping up Conscecrate. I thought it was so minimal that it wasn't worth the GCD. Wrong it seems! Keep the advice coming. I'm running over to the rotation section in the basics as well to see what I could possibly missing. It seems that I did hit 8k on him but still seems half the top and too low. (ok just went - yep I'm doing the boss rotation as explained here)

Q: What's our single-target rotation?
A: 939 You hit CS every second GCD. That's the 3's slot. The "9s" slot goes:

1. Judge
2. Alternate AS/Holy Wrath
3. Holy Power is at 3, hit ShoR

Thanks again,
Jay
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby Koatanga » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:03 pm

One of the strats for Magmaw is to have a tank pick up the adds, which would account for the high numbers. He would generally be using HotR, Inquisition, consecration, and wrath in order to get high threat on the adds so the DPS can unload on them and kill them quickly.

We don't use a tank on the adds, so I can't give you numbers based on that, but as the main tank on that fight, I did 7,300 DPS on our last kill.
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby Epimer » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:22 pm

frontallobe wrote:Here's my WoL from last night on Magmaw -- http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-k ... 073&e=6416

(ok just went - yep I'm doing the boss rotation as explained here)


No you're not.

Stuff like this:
Code: Select all
[21:46:53.729] Frontallobe casts Avenger's Shield on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:46:55.298] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:46:58.567] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:00.068] Frontallobe casts Shield of the Righteous on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:01.605] Frontallobe casts Judgement on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:03.140] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:06.377] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:08.344] Frontallobe casts Avenger's Shield on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:09.812] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:11.449] Frontallobe casts Avenger's Shield on Exposed Head of Magmaw


You should pretty much never, ever have two Crusader Strikes back to back, because it means you're leaving an empty GCD between them. Holy Wrath and Consecration might be pretty poor threat, but they're considerably more threat than doing nothing for a GCD.

You're doing lower DPS than you could be because you're leaving empty cooldowns rather than doing a CS-x-CS-x-CS-finisher rotation.
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby frontallobe » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:06 am

Ahh thank you so much. I tested throwing wrath and concecrate more consistently last night in heroics and I saw a nice bump on bosses. I also regemmed a bit. Thanks for the advice guys.

JJ
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby Forgrim » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:10 am

out of curiosity, when your tossing out holy wraths and consecrates like candy, do you other tanks switch to insight to regen mana back? i've found myself oom quite some times, switch to insight, get full, and if i'm in full dps mode, go back to truth but i find myself wondering if the GDC's are worth it.
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby frontallobe » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:13 am

Also, I was trying to find the place where you guys snagged what I was casting per swing like this
Code: Select all
[21:46:53.729] Frontallobe casts Avenger's Shield on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:46:55.298] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:46:58.567] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:00.068] Frontallobe casts Shield of the Righteous on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:01.605] Frontallobe casts Judgement on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:03.140] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:06.377] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:08.344] Frontallobe casts Avenger's Shield on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:09.812] Frontallobe casts Crusader Strike on Exposed Head of Magmaw
[21:47:11.449] Frontallobe casts Avenger's Shield on Exposed Head of Magmaw


Can anyone give me a quick click-walkthrough in WOL on how to pull this up for a given fight?

Thanks in advance,
Jay
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby Aerron » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:22 am

Forgrim wrote:out of curiosity, when your tossing out holy wraths and consecrates like candy, do you other tanks switch to insight to regen mana back? i've found myself oom quite some times, switch to insight, get full, and if i'm in full dps mode, go back to truth but i find myself wondering if the GDC's are worth it.


This is why I always recommend glyphing for the Truth and Insight minors. I find myself consistently:

- Dropping my first Cons while DP is still up at the start of a pull/fight and then
- Switching to Insight when I get down below 10-15% mana til the bar is full and then
- Back to Truth. Rinse and repeat for the remainder of the fight.

Not so important for heroics and the like, but nice on 6+ min raid bosses.
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby Epimer » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:55 am

frontallobe wrote:Ahh thank you so much. I tested throwing wrath and concecrate more consistently last night in heroics and I saw a nice bump on bosses. I also regemmed a bit. Thanks for the advice guys.

JJ


Mouseover "Damage Done", and scroll down to "Log Browser". Click "Add Query", and enter "Frontallobe" in the "Source" field. Remove the "Show all events" default query, and hit Run.

What you're ideally looking for is repeating patterns of things like this:

Code: Select all
[20:31:28.726] Lumines casts Crusader Strike on Atramedes
[20:31:30.239] Lumines casts Judgement on Atramedes
[20:31:31.879] Lumines casts Crusader Strike on Atramedes
[20:31:33.408] Lumines casts Avenger's Shield on Atramedes
[20:31:34.965] Lumines casts Crusader Strike on Atramedes
[20:31:36.578] Lumines casts Shield of the Righteous on Atramedes
[20:31:38.185] Lumines casts Crusader Strike on Atramedes
[20:31:39.748] Lumines casts Judgement on Atramedes
[20:31:41.354] Lumines casts Crusader Strike on Atramedes
[20:31:42.913] Lumines casts Holy Wrath
[20:31:44.615] Lumines casts Crusader Strike on Atramedes
[20:31:46.119] Lumines casts Shield of the Righteous on Atramedes
[20:31:48.602] Lumines casts Crusader Strike on Atramedes
[20:31:50.083] Lumines casts Judgement on Atramedes
[20:31:51.763] Lumines casts Crusader Strike on Atramedes
[20:31:53.286] Lumines casts Avenger's Shield on Atramedes
[20:31:54.920] Lumines casts Crusader Strike on Atramedes
[20:31:56.483] Lumines casts Shield of the Righteous on Atramedes


..with deviations for missed ShoRs etc.

For what it's worth, the 75 expertise you've reforged to on your tier legs are a drop in the ocean compared to correctly executing your rotation, so I really wouldn't reforge into any hit or expertise at all.
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby frontallobe » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:36 am

Thanks so much on both counts!

Jay
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:23 am

Epimer wrote:For what it's worth, the 75 expertise you've reforged to on your tier legs are a drop in the ocean compared to correctly executing your rotation


That reminded me of Dickens, thanks :)

The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!


Whenever our rotation changes, I will beat on a dummy for hours and just practice getting the flow of the rotation down to the point where I don't need the actively think about it while engaging a boss.
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Re: WTB Advice - dps is very low for tank

Postby Blackharon » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:34 am

baleogthefierce wrote:
Whenever our rotation changes, I will beat on a dummy for hours and just practice getting the flow of the rotation down to the point where I don't need the actively think about it while engaging a boss.


This is what I tell all my guild's alt tankadins to do. If they haven't spent at least 30 minutes on the rotation there's no way they can do it and control all of the 'what ifs' that can happen in an instance.
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