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New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:41 am

Sur-Pseudo wrote:
theckhd wrote:Also note that the sims assume AS has to hit to generate Holy Power. I suspect the wording is ambiguous and temporary, given the 4.0.6a changes to CS/HotR.


To quote evil blue..
"We don't like to reward people for failing"

So even if they say it'll work regardless of miss/dodge/parry, I would assume it's a bug that would be stealth hotfixed in a later patch if so ;-)

I kinda automatically assumed this Grand Crusader thing would work like the T10 Mage set bonus (which came to mind because it's what I'm familiar with) - activating when a proc buff is consumed, which was on-cast rather than on-hit. (No surprises that Blizzard are inconsistent on things like this.)
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby tlitp » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:04 am

Some mechanical analysis is needed before jumping to numbers/conclusions :
  • Is HoPow gained on-cast or on-hit ?
  • Code: Select all
    HPG (GrCr proc) -> filler -> HPG (GrCr proc) -> AS

    Are multiple potential gains "rolled" or "munched" ? In the aforementioned sequence, will AS grant (a maximum of; see below) 1 or 2 HoPow ?
  • Code: Select all
    HPG (GrCr proc; 3 HoPow) -> AS -> delayed finisher
    HPG (GrCr proc; 3 HoPow) -> finisher (EG proc) -> AS -> delayed finisher

    Are the gains restricted by the HoPow cap ? Will AS grant HoPow (either directly, either as a hidden buffer) in any of the above scenarios ?

Although somewhat inaccurate, I prefer using the Ignite/DW terminology of rolling/munching. No need to reinvent the wheel, methinks. :P
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby theckhd » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:00 am

I'm almost certain it will munch, not roll, and that it will be restricted by the HoPo cap. The "floating" HoPo slot was only ever implemented for Ret because of Divine Purpose procs, probably in a similar fashion to our 3-second Crusader Strike.

I'm guessing that it's on-hit rather than on-cast, but the wording of the tooltip indicates otherwise. Regardless, the difference is small (<10% chance to miss on AS, on a <20% proc), and it's early in the patch cycle (thus very likely to be tinkered with). The sims I ran so far assume munching, capped, on-hit behavior, which should make it a lower bound on the effectiveness of GrCr.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby tlitp » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:10 am

I know, I know. It was more of a reminder that we'll have to actually test them, rather than work with assumptions. :P
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby BennyHill » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:23 pm

I just confirmed that the HP proc is on cast, and still gives you HP if your AS misses. Here's a SS of my combat log (see the end of this one).
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx23/nodrog6/ASMiss.png

It also appears to have an ICD. For example, this situation would not generate HP:
CS (now have 3 HP, GC proc)
SotR
AS (now have 1 HP)
CS (now have 2 HP, GC proc)
AS (still have 2 HP)

Here's a SS of the ICD happening. I do not know the ICD time.
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx23/nodrog6/GCICD.png

Sorry for all the SoI/JotW spam.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby mclem » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:00 am

The ICD is interesting, but the ramifications of it make my head hurt.

* Is the ICD tied to GC *proccing* or AS being *used*? The latter feels more likely, but it does have an interesting (presumably) unintended side-effect:

* Something we can't really know until we determine the ICD, I think: If we wish to maximise HP generation rates, is it beneficial to sit on a GC proc until such a time where it is no longer on ICD and therefore will give HP? One 3HP SotR is significantly more damage than one 2HP SotR and an Avenger's Shield, I think. But you wouldn't do a 2HP SotR, you'd just delay until a 3HP comes along.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Hrobertgar » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:28 am

I am just hoping that the HoPo dramatically eliminates gaps.

Last week I had a situation on V&T where I missed 2 sonsecutive CS during the phase transition, leaving me with 1 HoPo when HS was expiring, so I used a 1 HoPo WoG on myself to keep it up. I've also noticed that at times I can get a double CS miss AND waste a GCD with a SotR miss. Yes, I retain the HoPo but I usually spam CS right after SotR, so I don't always catch the miss until after the CS, sometimes leaving me close to having HS drop off.

In the current situation I can always use WoG on myself without risk of fail to maintain HS. If WoG is to have a 20 sec CD for non-Holy, then I might need to have Inq as a backup, or risk eating a hit or two w/o HS until I could generate a HoPo. Thus a potential ICD for tha GC/AS proc doesn't seem like it helps reduce/eliminate HoPo gaps necessarily.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Tev » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:56 am

Sur-Pseudo wrote:To quote evil blue..
"We don't like to reward people for failing"


I had to throw this in here; Overpower Seems like a reward for failure to me :D
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Metherlance » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:19 am

It seems they really want to buff AS in 4.1.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2224-PTR-Patch-4.1-Build-13793

"Sacred Duty: Your Judgement and Avenger's Shield have a 50% chance of making your next Shield of the Righteous a critical strike. Lasts 10 sec."
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Cascadian » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:53 am

Metherlance wrote:It seems they really want to buff AS in 4.1.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2224-PTR-Patch-4.1-Build-13793

"Sacred Duty: Your Judgement and Avenger's Shield have a 50% chance of making your next Shield of the Righteous a critical strike. Lasts 10 sec."


That is a reduction in time for Judgement from 15 seconds, but adding AS to the mix.
This would greatly improve our odds of procing SD on the next ShotR being a critical hit.
Significant DPS increase for Pally tanks with more SD proc opportunities.

CS > AS > CS > J > CS > ShotR

I would say off the top of my head an extra 500 to 700 DPS over the course of a the fight if you always pick ShotR over WoG.

But if AS lands and procs SD + HoPo, does the rotation become like this for a cycle?

Cycle 1: CS > AS > CS > ShotR
Cycle 2: CS > J > CS > AS > CS > ShotR

It creates a lot more potential for variation on the rotation.
Always having to watch to see if your AS landed, and if so did it proc SD?

We could have 3 HoPo and still fish for a SD proc with this possibility of AS generating a HoPo charge, but not generating a SD proc, leaving out the 3rd CS:

CS > AS > CS > J > ShotR

or CS procs the GC opportunity on AS HoPo, Judgement got your SD active, so you skip the 3rd CS:

CS > J > CS > AS > ShotR

My head hurts thinking about what I am going to have to watch for.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:52 pm

All this does is make AS>J prioritization better than J>AS prioritization. It's still not going to be efficient to fish for procs; in general it never has been. AS hits hard enough to offset much of the cost though.

<edit> Wow, totally posted those in the wrong thread. Go here if you want to see the data.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby inthedrops » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:24 am

Hmm. 10 seconds instead of 15 means you can no longer miss two Crusader Strikes and still use the SD proc if it procced when you had zero holy power. I don't recall ever missing three in a row but I miss two in a row on occasion.

I think they're finding more and more ways to make us value hit/expertise.

On the positive side, this should even out the amount of procs a bit so now you might actually get another instance of the proc before finally getting that 3rd holy power.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Malthrax » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:50 am

Yay, more RNG. :roll:
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Yelena » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:08 pm

inthedrops wrote:Hmm. 10 seconds instead of 15 means you can no longer miss two Crusader Strikes and still use the SD proc if it procced when you had zero holy power. I don't recall ever missing three in a row but I miss two in a row on occasion.

I've had three miss in a row before, but it's pretty rare. More common for me to see is missing SotR multiple times in succession. During the "threat actually matters" part of a boss fight, after SotR fails to connect once or twice, I'll just hit Inquisition again and move on. It's not worth pushing the rotation back much further than that during that point of an encounter, considering the first miss already ate any Sacred Duty buff you may have had in the first place.

Including a CS to explain the three second gap between the first two misses (in other words, I was already hitting it before I realized the first miss occurred):
[19:25:45.743] Yelena Shield of the Righteous Magmatron Dodge
[19:25:47.741] Yelena Crusader Strike Magmatron *23632*
[19:25:48.824] Yelena Shield of the Righteous Magmatron Parry
[19:25:50.241] Yelena Shield of the Righteous Magmatron Parry

That's obviously not during the "threat matters" part of the fight, the damage from the CS crit implies that.

Another example from the same fight:
[19:24:39.224] Yelena gains Sacred Duty from Yelena
[19:24:47.108] Yelena Shield of the Righteous Electron Dodge
[19:24:47.108] Yelena's Sacred Duty fades from Yelena
[19:24:48.511] Yelena Shield of the Righteous Electron Miss
[19:24:50.057] Yelena Shield of the Righteous Electron Miss


inthedrops wrote:I think they're finding more and more ways to make us value hit/expertise.

From Ghostcrawler's most recent blog, it sounds like they're already trying to come up with additional ways to make tanks value hit/expertise, albeit tying them to their defenses.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Téuntjûh » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:01 am

You guys noticed that Sacred Duty ("your next SotR will crit") doesn't go away anymore if you miss with SotR?
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