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New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:29 am

I don't see any reason you couldn't use a Grand Crusader proc immediately on the next GCD. I certainly do that already in some situations. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to have a reaction time of around 1 second or less.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:49 am

theckhd wrote:I don't see any reason you couldn't use a Grand Crusader proc immediately on the next GCD. I certainly do that already in some situations. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to have a reaction time of around 1 second or less.


true, I'm thinking like a caster where on-hit procs don't evaluate until the spell completes
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:59 am

This really strikes me as being a HADD. That is, a Half-Assed Design Decision.

Designer 1: "Hey -- prot kind of got fucked by removing HP on Dodge/Parry/Miss. We should address that."
Designer 2: "Didn't we make some noises about making GC more useful somehow?"
Designer 1: "We should mash them together! Who wants lunch?"

I don't know how much of a difference this is going to make for me as a raid leading paladin tank. I don't know how much spare mental bandwidth I'm going to have to micromanage procs anyway -- there's a reason I raid lead on my paladin and not my warrior (not that S&B procs are difficult; this GC proc is going to require more mental calculation than a S&B proc since it's not "hey it's up I should hit it", rather, "hey it's up now how many HP do I have and how is this proc going to influence my next two or three GCDs?").

Also, it basically doesn't matter: maybe if we really had to micro rotations to generate optimum threat this would be something worth caring about. Maybe if we had to really micro HP generation to be effective tanks they'd be onto something.

With vengeance, I'm positive we could tank without any problems without ever using a single HP ability. If not needing to use a "core mechanic" isn't the sign of broken design, I'm not sure what is.

Which is not to say that it's not still worthwhile to find the best priority system and use that when you can. But it won't matter when you can't, or leave many GCD gaps to have abilities ready to react to the fight.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Zibey » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:25 am

Theck - in the data you posted queues 7-12 don't seem to have AS+ included, but just AS - should we read it as AS+ anyway?

Also I might overestimate my ability to do math, but it seems obvious to priorise GC procced AS (AS+) over CS - especially that GC procc doesn't seem to have any cd (last time I had 2/2 GC it wasn't uncommon to see it proccing off two following CS').
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Arincia » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:31 am

Interestingly enough rereading the text it's * Grand Crusader will now generate a charge of Holy Power if the Avenger Shield it procs is used within 6 seconds. So seems it's always a HP gain when it's used.
This would always make it generate more HP but the question is if it’s more Hp or less then before?

Assuming we ignored when J came up and went SoR>GC>CS>J it could be at best 14.3% more HP (0 hit/exp) and at best 18.5% more HP (26 exp/8 hit). This would put the overall gain compared to current to end with:

4.03 (o hit/exp) (100/100) HP
Current (0 hit/exp) (71.5/100) HP

4.1 2/2 GC (0 hit/exp) (85.8/100) HP (14.3)
4.1 0/2 GC (0 hit/exp) (71.5/100) HP

4.1 2/2 GC (0 hit/26 exp) (101.4/100) HP (16.9)
4.1 0/2 GC (0 hit/26 exp) (84.5/100) HP

4.1 2/2 GC (8 hit/26 exp) (111/100) HP (18.5)
4.1 0/2 GC (8 hit/26 exp) (92.5/100)HP

Rating of hit/exp per increase in HP gained from proc:
0>26 exp= .0054% increase in HP per 1 rating of exp
0>8 hit= .0017% increase in HP per 1 rating of hit

It does seem ironic looking at this that the proc is actually better at lower hit and exp values for a gain as with higher values of hit/exp the rotation would almost naturally slip into he 9x9 rotation. To make best use of it would probably be to use inq if judgment hadn't been used (no chance for sr proc).

Coming back to using the proc in a 9x9 static considering the 6 second proc timer this means within 2 CS of each other to use which it would only proc 36% the time*(1- miss rate) or CS>X>CS>Y which no hit/exp is 25.74%.
For CS>J>CS>X>CS>finisher 0 hit/exp you get 3 hp (0/2 GC) 36% the time
Given above then we can say that only 2/3 the time we get the gc proc window up before the 3rd cs to use in X.
SO we have (2/3)*(25.78)= 17.18 actual gain on 3 hp from the 2 hp case.
This should result in 3 hp for 9x9 static to occurs 36.6%+(probability of 2HP case)*(0.17) due to 2/2 GC.

4 hp= (36.6)*.17)=6.2% chance to get 4 hp
3 hp= 36.6(1-.17)+(43.7*0.17)=37.8 % chance for 3 hp (no gc= 36.6)
2 hp= (43.7(1-.17)+(17.4*.17)=39.16% (no gc= 43.7)
0 HP= 2.3%
1 HP= 14.5% (no gc= 17.4%)

Average (gc 2/2)= 2.188hp per 3 cs
Adjusted for 3 hp cap= 2.24
Average (0/2 gc)=2.14 hp per 3 cs

Anyways this just shifts how often we get more 2 and 3 Hp per 9x9 static vrs 1 and 0 HP per rotation from currently. (going to .925*.36=.333 chance to proc now)

(hit/exp cap)
4 hp= 26.3%
3 hp= 79.1(1-.33)+(21.8*0.33)= 60% (no gc 79.1%)
2 hp= (21.8(1-.33)+(2*.33)= 15.2% (no gc 21.8%)
0 hp= 0.06%
1 hp= (2(1-.33))= 1.33% (no gc 2%)

average hp (2/2 gc)= 3.17
adjusted for 3 hp cap (2/2 gc)=2.9
average hp (0/2 gc)= 2.83

The problem with this that 4 hp is useless (we can’t bank it like ret can/used to) so that’s why I included a adjusted 3 cap average. I know it’s not a ideal representation but I think it points out a few things. One is that since we can’t bank the hp it causes more problems and becomes devalued with less miss chance (to much overflow). This causes a huge devaluation of the talent (comparing average 2/2 gc to adjusted we see a huge loss).

On the other hand since we can’t bank it we see it more optimized (ie less overflow) with no hit and exp. (Adjusted is higher then average 2/2 gc). In both cases it barely adjusted the average hp gain from min to max. No hit/exp is 0.1 max while 8hit/26exp is 0.34 max for the differences. (if your curious if I included the rare chance of 2 gc procs to drop judgment cs>gc>cs>gc>cs>Finisher it’s a average of 3.2 hp)

If we could actually bank HP but not use more then 3 (like ret used to) then we should see HP generation equal to 4.0.3 levels around soft cap exp. It would also be a elegant way to smooth out the rotation and make this a better talent.

Sadly I feel that the best finisher may end being a combination of inq and sor similar to or we end up using something very similar to rets dps priority. (inq (3< sec duration)>sor>gc>cs>j>conc>hw possibly)
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:44 pm

I'm siding with fuzzy on this...


This is a near-useless change... I don't use GC to begin with -- I debated switching with WOG nerf, but I still can't find it being useful to get more Holy Power if I'm just using it for threat.

As others have stated, it's semi-situational, and requires more mental bandwidth to process which doesn't seem worth it on most difficult boss fights. And like the HoPo nerf requiring the abilities to connect, we're still only getting that GC/AS Holy power if CS/HotR hit, GC procs, AS Hits..

I suppose the only saving grace is the fact AS has a 90% hit rate
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Arincia » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:07 pm

As its posted GC doesn't have to hit its target just get used within 6 seconds of the proc to get the hp. Still unless they do some other changes with it its better to just resort to inq to keep up hs between wog/3hp sor.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Malthrax » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:10 pm

It is rather silly, IMO.

1) we don't NEED to cast WoG on ourselves to stay alive - our healers should be, can, and are fully capable of keeping us alive w/o our help
2) we don't NEED to cast SotR on our target to maintain threat - if we did, we wouldn't be accused of "WoG spamming" right now
3) we don't NEED to cast Inquisition on ourselves to maintain threat - see #2 above


So, what exactly do we NEED holy power for? Just something to whack every 20 seconds to refresh Holy Shield? Shit, give me back my Holy Shield button then.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:35 pm

Zibey wrote:Theck - in the data you posted queues 7-12 don't seem to have AS+ included, but just AS - should we read it as AS+ anyway?

Also I might overestimate my ability to do math, but it seems obvious to priorise GC procced AS (AS+) over CS - especially that GC procc doesn't seem to have any cd (last time I had 2/2 GC it wasn't uncommon to see it proccing off two following CS').


No, queues 7-12 are unchanged. They still "work," in that if AS is cast during the Grand Crusader proc, you gain holy power. But there's no specific "AS+" prioritization present. I was mostly interested in the first six, which ignore Cons/HW. In practice, we rarely have the mana to cast them, so it doesn't seem all that fair to consider rotations that assume you do.

You would intuitively think that it's natural to prioritize AS+ over CS, but it isn't. The reason is that if you do so, you end up pushing back CS, which is a net loss to holy power generation. Not a complete loss, but enough to offset much of the gain of the Grand Crusader proc. Your first instinct would be that this should be a flat 20% increase to our Holy Power generation rate, but if you look at the result of the sims, it's closer to 7%.

Also note that the sims assume AS has to hit to generate Holy Power. I suspect the wording is ambiguous and temporary, given the 4.0.6a changes to CS/HotR.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Macra » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:41 pm

I think this change is in line with the WoG nerf. Blizz seems to be pushing us out of the tank/healer role and more into the tank/dps role. While people are looking at this change thinking, "Hm, I don't need more threat! This is worthless." They must start thinking of it as, "My raid could always use more DPS." We are a tank first and dps second. Since as it stands threat has nothing to do with tanking we must assume that changes are being made to aid us in our second purpose, dps'ing. Though I do think there is more tweaking to be done to assure dps gain through GC procs. We'll see how things pan out in the end, hopefully as a net gain for us.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:19 pm

theckhd wrote:Also note that the sims assume AS has to hit to generate Holy Power. I suspect the wording is ambiguous and temporary, given the 4.0.6a changes to CS/HotR.


To quote evil blue..
"We don't like to reward people for failing"

So even if they say it'll work regardless of miss/dodge/parry, I would assume it's a bug that would be stealth hotfixed in a later patch if so ;-)
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:24 pm

Macra wrote:I think this change is in line with the WoG nerf. Blizz seems to be pushing us out of the tank/healer role and more into the tank/dps role. While people are looking at this change thinking, "Hm, I don't need more threat! This is worthless." They must start thinking of it as, "My raid could always use more DPS." We are a tank first and dps second. Since as it stands threat has nothing to do with tanking we must assume that changes are being made to aid us in our second purpose, dps'ing. Though I do think there is more tweaking to be done to assure dps gain through GC procs. We'll see how things pan out in the end, hopefully as a net gain for us.



Good point, on DPS...


Theck, if you find a moment, could you re-run popular rotations along with new ones for 0-Vengeance scenarios as well?

I know it's mildly uncommon, but I frequently OT with 0 vengeance, and I'm actually curious what the best no-V rotation is... I remember pre CS talent buff HotR was the better no-Veng ability.

(I'm thinking Magmaw OT, Maloriak when no adds up, Chimaeron occasionally, Cho'gal at times, BH for a bit, Al'Akir frequently)


I'm curious how AS/GC fairs in low (sub-1k)-vengeance scenarios
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Zibey » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:56 pm

Actually I believe that with WoG change I will get to Sotr much more than on live, which should offset using SoI for me, and provide enough mana to use HW/Cons whenever needed.

I think I see your point now, though I will definately not like to lose the procc in situations of: CS(GC proc):3 HoPo->Sotr:miss->Inq->CS->.... sorry, you had lag, buff is lost. ;)
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby theckhd » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:53 am

Sur-Pseudo wrote:Theck, if you find a moment, could you re-run popular rotations along with new ones for 0-Vengeance scenarios as well?

I know it's mildly uncommon, but I frequently OT with 0 vengeance, and I'm actually curious what the best no-V rotation is... I remember pre CS talent buff HotR was the better no-Veng ability.

(I'm thinking Magmaw OT, Maloriak when no adds up, Chimaeron occasionally, Cho'gal at times, BH for a bit, Al'Akir frequently)


I'm curious how AS/GC fairs in low (sub-1k)-vengeance scenarios


I will, but my first priority is to finish updating the 4.0.6 sims, now that I've finally figured out a good way to approach the modeling. Once that's done, I'll be able to dive into 4.1 simulations whole hog.
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Re: New Protection HoPo mechanics in 4.1

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:48 am

theckhd wrote:
Sur-Pseudo wrote:Theck, if you find a moment, could you re-run popular rotations along with new ones for 0-Vengeance scenarios as well?

I know it's mildly uncommon, but I frequently OT with 0 vengeance, and I'm actually curious what the best no-V rotation is... I remember pre CS talent buff HotR was the better no-Veng ability.

(I'm thinking Magmaw OT, Maloriak when no adds up, Chimaeron occasionally, Cho'gal at times, BH for a bit, Al'Akir frequently)


I'm curious how AS/GC fairs in low (sub-1k)-vengeance scenarios


I will, but my first priority is to finish updating the 4.0.6 sims, now that I've finally figured out a good way to approach the modeling. Once that's done, I'll be able to dive into 4.1 simulations whole hog.



Thanks Theck! <3
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