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Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:13 pm

Here's our roster at the moment

Code: Select all
Class--------Number of Raiders
Death Knight - 6
Druid -------- 6
Hunter ------- 1
Mage --------- 2
Paladin ------ 5
Priest ------- 4
Rogue -------- 3
Shaman ------- 3
Warrior ------ 1
Warlock ------ 1


Needles to say, our Protector tokens are going to 3rd offsets and our Vanquisher tokens are still in super high demand >_<
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Bladesong » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:10 pm

I think that like most guilds, we fill a raid with people who are online and have at least the minimum skill/gear to be viable. We don't ask people to change specs, although our Ret has been healing a lot out of necessity (meaning, he doesn't have to, but we'd otherwise not be able to raid (we are recruiting healers!)) and we are fortunate to not have an over-abundance of melee. From our Cho'Gall kill last week:

Paladin - 5 (2 tanks, 2 healers, 1 Ret)
Druid - 3 (1 Feral, 1 Boomkin, 1 Resto)
Hunter - 4 (1 Survival, 3 Marksman)
Shaman - 2 (2 Resto)
Rogue - 2 (2 Assassination)
Mage - 3 (1 Arcane, 2 Fire)
Priest - 3 (1 Holy, 2 Shadow)
Warlock - 2 (2 Destruction)
Death Knight 1 (1 Frost)

Other regular raiders are a Demonology Lock, another Shadow Priest and two more Fire Mages. We've found that letting people play what they want is more fun and people who are enjoying themselves play better :mrgreen:
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:34 am

Bladesong wrote:I think that like most guilds, we fill a raid with people who are online and have at least the minimum skill/gear to be viable. We don't ask people to change specs, although our Ret has been healing a lot out of necessity (meaning, he doesn't have to, but we'd otherwise not be able to raid (we are recruiting healers!)) and we are fortunate to not have an over-abundance of melee. From our Cho'Gall kill last week:

Paladin - 5 (2 tanks, 2 healers, 1 Ret)
Druid - 3 (1 Feral, 1 Boomkin, 1 Resto)
Hunter - 4 (1 Survival, 3 Marksman)
Shaman - 2 (2 Resto)
Rogue - 2 (2 Assassination)
Mage - 3 (1 Arcane, 2 Fire)
Priest - 3 (1 Holy, 2 Shadow)
Warlock - 2 (2 Destruction)
Death Knight 1 (1 Frost)

Other regular raiders are a Demonology Lock, another Shadow Priest and two more Fire Mages. We've found that letting people play what they want is more fun and people who are enjoying themselves play better :mrgreen:

Holy cow... 1 DK... is that even legal for guilds to only have 1? :lol:
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Hokahey » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:30 am

culhag wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Do warlocks just not bring enough to the table? Out of the 5 guilds listed here, there are what... 2 raiding locks?

Warlocks are great. They do very good damage overall.
In Demo spec they can do very impressive AoE. On Maloriak they helped a lot.

We usually have two or three locks in our 25-man raid.


While I don't disagree, I have to point out that pretty much every DPS spec (that I'm aware of) does at least acceptable levels of DPS when played appropriately. Demonology is definitely an AoE DPS monster, perhaps the overall best in that particular role.

Aside from that niche, for what reason would you bring a Warlock (of any spec) as opposed to any other class? Or are Warlocks simply an acceptable way to fill DPS slots after all essential utilities and roles have been covered? Would you be concerned if every one of those Warlocks was traded in for another Ranged DPS class/spec?

For the record, I seriously doubt its that the playerbase in general or raiders in particular look at Warlocks as "inviable" for raiding. I personally think being a pure DPS class in the current WoW of dual-specs and LFD PuGs puts those players at a fairly tangible disadvantage for getting into dungeons, which is key for getting a character ready to raid, and fairly key (in my opinion) for one being fun to play. I think players, as individuals, may be shying away from pure DPS classes much more than previously for these reasons. In case I somehow failed to make this absolutely clear, this is entirely my opinion, based only on my subjective observations.

Holy cow... 1 DK... is that even legal for guilds to only have 1?


You must have missed my guild with precisely none.
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:16 am

Only thing that I can see a lock bringing that isn't provided by another class would be cookies and TVs (in case you're in the middle of a run and need to switch out someone or something.) They have a fairly varied array of CC, which was mostly exclusive to pure dps classes during classic/TBC. Sure you'd have the occasional lol-spriest w/ MC and Shackles, but those were limited by the content (I don't recall many classic raids that had a lot of undead until Naxx, and most "serious" raids wouldn't take a spriest until TBC, which was more for VT mana returns than anything else.) Similar with Ret/OOMkin.

I wonder if they reduced the CC back to pure dps, if that would cause the aoe-fest to get worse, or if pure dpsers would increase in numbers. Of course, for hybrids, iirc, their dps was never really on par for classic (some of it was fixed for TBC, and all the dps specs were fairly viable for LK.)
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Chicken » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:03 am

Outside of Healthstone and summoning convenience warlocks don't really bring anything unique to the table, but truth be told, very few classes do these days. Warlocks do have some nice other qualities though:

- Fear is one of the most universal CCs out there; generally it only doesn't work on undead or the mob is just entirely CC immune.
- Any type of Warlock can bring the 8% more spell damage taken debuff; that's pretty handy in a 10-man raid.
- While Warlocks don't have (m)any "Oh god huge damage incoming better use this" survival abilities, they instead have Soul Link which basically works out to always taking 20% (or 25% if glyphed) less damage from everything. So if there's an encounter with a fairly frequent amount of large AoE damage, Warlocks are pretty survivable compared to most classes*.
- Demonology is incredibly good at 'burst AoE' damage. In addition Demonology is one of the few sources of the 10% extra spellpower buff.
- Destruction and Affliction both get a large damage boost from a 'multi-boss' encounter like the Omnotron Defense System or Theralion and Valiona due to their abilities.
- Destruction also gets Shadowfury for ranged AoE stun goodness. It's handy in a lot of situations, and the cooldown is short enough to be able to use on every single Worship Cho'gall does.

*Soul Link is especially silly on Chimaeron, because of the way it interacts with Finkle's machine Massacre will not bring you down to 1 health... It'll bring you down to 20%/25% of your current health instead.
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Shoju » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:42 am

Thoughts on why warlocks are hard to come by
This is purely anecdotal theorizing by myself about why there might be a lack of warlocks.

I have never gotten a warlock high in levels. The reason is pretty simple. They are fantastically easy to level through questing, but when you get in a dungeon, they play completely different. The highest I have ever gotten a warlock is 30. I have deleted almost as many warlock alts as druid alts. The reason? By 30, I feel like I'm completely lost on how to do anything with the class in a group setting.

From the time you get a VW or FG, you play the game DoT DoT Loot to quest. You dot up the enemies, send your pet after them, and just run around and loot. You don't have to use cast timed spells, you don't have to think about what you are doing, just toss your instant dots, let the pet finish it off.

Then, once I started getting into groups, I realized, I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing, AND blizzard doesn't have an in game DoT Timer for DoT classes past the debuff on the mobs Unit Frame.

Because of these things, I just lose interest, lose focus, get frustrated with the class because it is so different between questing and pve-ing, and the lack of in game functions to make the class easier to use. I can't comment on warlock pvp, because I just have never done any, even at low levels.

I'm not saying that this is a bad design for the class. It is however, at least in my case, the reason I don't play one.
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Sagedin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:03 am

Skye1013 wrote:Holy cow... 1 DK... is that even legal for guilds to only have 1? :lol:


We currently only have 1 DK as well in our 25 man guild. To make matters worse he is our Maintank, meaning our progress encounters like heroic Magmaw and heroic Conclave are a pain as we need to have him go frost for that and have a dps go tanking.

I think we have had recruitment open for a DK for about 4 months now, and it seems there just aren't any decent ones (let alone good ones) on our server. Our latest trials failed miserably, pulling about 11k after we got them geared (ilvl 359) and unable to interrupt 2 second casts /cry

Anyway to get back on topic, our roster looks like:

Deathknight: 1 (tank)
Druid: 5 (2 healing, 3 dps - with 1 feral and 2 balance)
Hunter: 3
Mage: 3
Paladin: 2 (1 healing, 1 dps)
Priests: 4 (2 healing - switching between disc and holy, 2 shadow)
Rogue: 2
Shaman: 4 (3 healing, 1 dps - elemental)
Warlock: 3
Warrior: 2 (1 tank, 1 dps)
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Chunes » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:53 am

Well, after the shitfest that has been Maloriak HM 10man for the last two full nights of attempts, our RL and other leadership called bullshit on the mechanics and we had to make some decisions regarding our comp. If you check my first post in here, we are currently doubled up on paladins, DK's and shaman in our 10man, so yeah, our class diversity sucks and we're severely lacking in the stambuff department. So our raiders agreed that a few people would be dusting off or rerolling classes we could benefit from.

Our ele sham is currently PL'ing her warlock to 85
Our DPS DK is dusting his former priest main off and will fill the healing spot left vacant by
Our resto shaman who is going enhance.

The tl;dr of it all is that for some of the fights we're up against, having a disc priest is going to make the fights significantly easier. That and both resto and ele shaman are in a pretty terrible spot right now.

Fortunately we have raiders who are willing and wanting to swap over to different classes.
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:44 am

Image

I've always liked playing games with data.

Also, the token system is pretty fucking stupid.

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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby thatguy » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:45 pm

Chunes wrote:That and both resto and ele shaman are in a pretty terrible spot right now.



I can't argue with your experiece since I have yet to start on anything heroic (let alone Chogall or Nef) but shamans just received a shit ton of buffs and our output is quite substantial now in terms of heals. Granted, we lack a cooldown but I was under the impression that shamans are much better off and are now in the middle of the pack again.

Is that not the case in your raids?
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Blackharon » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:48 pm

Skye1013 wrote:
Bladesong wrote:I think that like most guilds, we fill a raid with people who are online and have at least the minimum skill/gear to be viable. We don't ask people to change specs, although our Ret has been healing a lot out of necessity (meaning, he doesn't have to, but we'd otherwise not be able to raid (we are recruiting healers!)) and we are fortunate to not have an over-abundance of melee. From our Cho'Gall kill last week:

Paladin - 5 (2 tanks, 2 healers, 1 Ret)
Druid - 3 (1 Feral, 1 Boomkin, 1 Resto)
Hunter - 4 (1 Survival, 3 Marksman)
Shaman - 2 (2 Resto)
Rogue - 2 (2 Assassination)
Mage - 3 (1 Arcane, 2 Fire)
Priest - 3 (1 Holy, 2 Shadow)
Warlock - 2 (2 Destruction)
Death Knight 1 (1 Frost)

Other regular raiders are a Demonology Lock, another Shadow Priest and two more Fire Mages. We've found that letting people play what they want is more fun and people who are enjoying themselves play better :mrgreen:

Holy cow... 1 DK... is that even legal for guilds to only have 1? :lol:


We have none - 2/3 of our regular DK's mainchanged to warriors and the third quit the game.
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Gab » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:07 pm

thatguy wrote:
Chunes wrote:That and both resto and ele shaman are in a pretty terrible spot right now.



I can't argue with your experiece since I have yet to start on anything heroic (let alone Chogall or Nef) but shamans just received a shit ton of buffs and our output is quite substantial now in terms of heals. Granted, we lack a cooldown but I was under the impression that shamans are much better off and are now in the middle of the pack again.

Is that not the case in your raids?


We have 4 main spec healers in our 12 man roster, one of each class. I would say they are pretty close in skill level, the priest is probably the best player and the druid is probably a bit behind in skill but the gap isn't huge. To be quite honest I would much rather have either a second Priest or a second Paladin instead of a Shaman or Druid. We are 4/13 heroic and on every fight there is a large portion of predictable damage where proactive cooldowns are just so much better than any buff to throughput. The main reason we have the Shaman around is for Heroism if our enhance Shaman can't make it for some reason. Otherwise the Shaman would probably be playing his hunter.

Edit: I do realize that BM hunters can bring a Heroism pet, but he isn't a fan of BM.
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby Chunes » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:13 pm

thatguy wrote:
Chunes wrote:That and both resto and ele shaman are in a pretty terrible spot right now.



I can't argue with your experiece since I have yet to start on anything heroic (let alone Chogall or Nef) but shamans just received a shit ton of buffs and our output is quite substantial now in terms of heals. Granted, we lack a cooldown but I was under the impression that shamans are much better off and are now in the middle of the pack again.

Is that not the case in your raids?


It's not that their terrible in their own right, I would agree that in terms of througput they are decent. The resto is deficient in the fact that he has no external cooldowns he can leverage to the raid's benefit (since we already have a mage for lust) currently. Our holydin brings AM, strategic bubbles, HoSac, HoP, etc. etc., the druid brings an important brez and just all out great healing. Our largest complaint about the ele sham is that her dps is simply too dependent on not moving at all. She can crank out an easy 22-23k dps on the BH lolIneverhavetomovereally boss, but on a fight with more movement, she's down at 16k average. Totems are nice and all, but really, we need other things more.
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Re: Interesting Breakdown on our Raiding Body.

Postby thatguy » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:22 pm

I can't argue with the cooldown issue. It's one of the main reasons I'm frantically leveling my paladin as holy for all the things you stated above.

I have no knowledge of ele shaman dps but enhance has their own issues with AoE dps (although they're "working" on that too). It's a shame since I've enjoyed my shaman immensely but in regards to other comparable classes, they have some glaring weaknesses.

Spiritwalker's Grace helps but the long cooldown doesn't do enough on movement fights. The same can be said for resto heals.
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