SSD System Drives

Hardware, software, geek stuff

Moderators: laterna, Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:36 pm

rodos wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:SSD vs 2xHDD?
Depending on the drives i would say the transfer rates would be comparable (maybe better for the HDD's), but seek times would always win out on the SSD.

That's what I reckon, and given WoW does a lot of random reads and not many writes, it should be better, but it's always nice to see real-world results from the apps you're using.

Side note: A lot of people complained about bad performance in Cata, especially on Mac. Some of this was down to what Blizzard did with the GFX quality sliders (what was maximum before is now about the middle of some sliders). However, what I think killed things for me was the new streaming downloader causing internal fragmentation of the MPQ databases. The problem was rotating the camera in a crowded city causing massive fps loss. I'm convinced this was due to slow texture loading, and WoW being too aggressive in pushing off-screen textures out of the cache (particularly problematic with low GFX memory on a lot of Macs). SSD provides a huge boost in that department.

Short version: My old Macbook Pro (Radeon X1300 gfx) became almost unplayable in Dalaran after the pre-Cata patch, but after I put a SSD in it things were fine again.


If you let the launcher sit on "apply non-critical updates" what it's actually doing is defragging the MPQs.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10476
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby laterna » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:30 am

Sabindeus wrote:I have a Crucial
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... -_-Product

I got it because I found a deal on it but the reviews on NewEgg are kind of terrible.... now I'm concerned. :/


Its not necessarily a bad one, but its not the best. I have a crucial one too, but mine is the C300 series

The best SSD is currently considered the C300. It does an extremely smart trick, where it sacrifices write speed, for read speed(at small capacities. at larger capacities it recovers write speeds). Which is an 100% good thing. You'll only ever put your OS, WoW and whatever game you want on it, so essentially, your write speed is insignifigant. You read speed being even faster than normal SSD's, makes it awesome.

There's also talk about 2nd generation SSD's, but I haven't read any reviews, or any non-press talk about it so don't hold up on those for now.

So in essense, you sacrifice write spead (mostly insignifigant) for read speed (very importand). I have one of these on my own rig, and if anything although I have the 64gb version, it still is a powerhouse. Its got WoW,Windows and HoN on it with about 10gb empty space atm.

The other thing you can consider are hybrid SSD/HD drives. They bring the best out of both, and at a better price than a pure SSD.

Just one note to the folks talking about pc stuff, remember that you shouldn't say "A friends of mine SSD asploded, so they are bad". If its a 0.1% failure rate and they replace it for free, within 2 weeks its no biggie. It propably won't happen to you, and if it does, they will replace it.
laterna
Moderator
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:33 am

rodos wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:If you are feeling game, you can get 2 SSD's of half the capacity you were considering, and run them in raid 0 for truly uber performance.

Just remember that if you do this you halve your mean time to failure.

Anything I put on RAID-0 is just stuff that can be re-installed (OS, apps, games, etc.), but you're still looking at down-time when one of them dies. That said, it's totally worth the risk in certain situations. I've got WoW running striped across a pair of old 36 GB WD Raptors (10k rpm drives). Performance is really excellent.

Recently the laptop that I put an SSD in (a G.Skill Phoenix) died for unrelated reasons. I'll probably pull the drive and put it in my desktop this weekend, so I'll be able to run some performance comparisons between SSD and 2xHDD, which will be interesting.
Technically, you double your chance of failure, but mean time is not really affected. In fact, since SSD's have a fairly strong correlation between usage and failure, you probably increase the mean time to failure, since each drive gets less usage.

I'd bet the SSD performs noticeably faster than your raid.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9669
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby Shyrtandros » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:28 am

I feel like a caveman...

I'm still running standard HDD's :| on both my 2yr old rig and my 4yr old.
"Warning: AA posts may cause severe urges to buy or rent games you may not have been interested in, known about or would normally consider playing. If you experience sudden urges to purchase said games please consult your wallet, bank account or significant other to see if these games are right for you and your budget."
User avatar
Shyrtandros
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:54 am

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby cerwillis » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:48 am

Since I decided on a drive that was $100 more than I expected to pay, I think I'm gonna wait until the 15th to make my order, but I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Mistawillis - Cerwillis - Turbowillis - Evilan
<Silent Resolve> Durotan/SW:TOR Shii-Cho
Miniwillis <PK> SC
User avatar
cerwillis
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:00 am

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:44 pm

My first SSD was a Corsair 256GB, it has been trucking for almost 2 years now and I've never had a problem (even after multiple OS installs).
I built a new system in early 2010 and decided to try a cheap-o Patriot drive as the boot drive, but it corrupted the MBR a few times, forcing an OS reinstall (no recovery utilities were able to fix it). After that problem, the drive had serious throughput problems and eventually just failed outright.
I replaced it with an 80GB Intel, and I've been happy as a clam ever since. I basically just have the OS and WoW on the boot drive, so there's a good 20GB of free space, so a 64GB would probably have been fine for me.

Other than buying a cheap-o drive and having it fail on me, I've had nothing but great performance out of these things. Let us know how it turns out. You'll love the instant wakeup from sleep mode and ~30s boot from a cold system.
baleogthefierce
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:44 am
Location: Farming Molten Core for my Eye

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:13 pm

laterna wrote:Its not necessarily a bad one, but its not the best. I have a crucial one too, but mine is the C300 series

The best SSD is currently considered the C300. It does an extremely smart trick, where it sacrifices write speed, for read speed(at small capacities. at larger capacities it recovers write speeds). Which is an 100% good thing. You'll only ever put your OS, WoW and whatever game you want on it, so essentially, your write speed is insignifigant. You read speed being even faster than normal SSD's, makes it awesome.


How does this compare to SandForce drives, like the Corsair Force F-120? I've been thinking about buying a second SSD for my system drive, in the ~120GB range. I already have WoW on a separate SSD, which seemed to help with texture load times. I'm not sure if putting the system drive on an SSD will make much difference for WoW, but it might significantly speed up boot times.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8003
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby inthedrops » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:30 pm

theckhd wrote:
laterna wrote:Its not necessarily a bad one, but its not the best. I have a crucial one too, but mine is the C300 series

The best SSD is currently considered the C300. It does an extremely smart trick, where it sacrifices write speed, for read speed(at small capacities. at larger capacities it recovers write speeds). Which is an 100% good thing. You'll only ever put your OS, WoW and whatever game you want on it, so essentially, your write speed is insignifigant. You read speed being even faster than normal SSD's, makes it awesome.


How does this compare to SandForce drives, like the Corsair Force F-120? I've been thinking about buying a second SSD for my system drive, in the ~120GB range. I already have WoW on a separate SSD, which seemed to help with texture load times. I'm not sure if putting the system drive on an SSD will make much difference for WoW, but it might significantly speed up boot times.


I was happy with my choice of putting the OS on an SSD drive. Just be aware that it's still probably a good idea to keep your "write" intensive tasks to real hard drives still. For me, that meant pointing my Firefox cache to a real drive (easier said than done, it's hidden commands to do that) and I set my swap file to a real hard drive. Also, I run Windows 7 and I remapped all of my "Libraries" such as "Documents" and "Pictures" and what not to also be a real drive.
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby Chunes » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:45 pm

I honestly had no idea SSD's were as prevalent on this board as they seem to be. I'm still in the stonage with like a 7500rpm hdd for storage and a 10krpm smaller hdd for the OS.

Granted I built my comp back in '07...
User avatar
Chunes
 
Posts: 2271
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby Vrimmel » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:29 pm

cerwillis wrote:
Vrimmel wrote:SSDs are incredible. Of course don't buy just any disk on the market. Check reviews and recommendations. My disk is at 120 gb. I wouldn't go any lower.

What brand is yours? Also I would like to know if there is anything to know when setting one up. I know that I'll need a bracket, because they only come in 2.5". I'm considering cloning my current install over to it because I'm pretty happy with it, I wonder if you guys think that's a good idea.


I have http://www.ocztechnology.com/ocz-revodrive-pci-express-ssd.html . That thing is fast!!! You do need a stationary computer to use it though.

For a 2.5' in a laptop it depends what brand it is. Usually it's not too hard to open a laptop if you have the right tools (screwdrivers of different sizes). Any computer case will do if you have a stationary computer. There are usually brackets for it, but if you don't have one, it doesn't matter. The disk doesnt move, so you can just throw it wherever as long as it doesnt get in the way of anything.
Vrimmel
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:40 am

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby Rofladin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:08 am

Sabindeus wrote:
rodos wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:SSD vs 2xHDD?
Depending on the drives i would say the transfer rates would be comparable (maybe better for the HDD's), but seek times would always win out on the SSD.

That's what I reckon, and given WoW does a lot of random reads and not many writes, it should be better, but it's always nice to see real-world results from the apps you're using.

Side note: A lot of people complained about bad performance in Cata, especially on Mac. Some of this was down to what Blizzard did with the GFX quality sliders (what was maximum before is now about the middle of some sliders). However, what I think killed things for me was the new streaming downloader causing internal fragmentation of the MPQ databases. The problem was rotating the camera in a crowded city causing massive fps loss. I'm convinced this was due to slow texture loading, and WoW being too aggressive in pushing off-screen textures out of the cache (particularly problematic with low GFX memory on a lot of Macs). SSD provides a huge boost in that department.

Short version: My old Macbook Pro (Radeon X1300 gfx) became almost unplayable in Dalaran after the pre-Cata patch, but after I put a SSD in it things were fine again.


If you let the launcher sit on "apply non-critical updates" what it's actually doing is defragging the MPQs.


Defragging as in swapping around chunks of data, using up writes on my limited-use NAND memory? Ugh...

I run two OCZ Vertex (the original model) SSDs in RAID0 for Windows and games. I originally purchased a 60GB drive, and quickly ran out of space, so I decided to get an identical drive and debated between RAIDing them and using them as separate drives. In my experience, this decision greatly depends on your SATA/RAID controller card/chip. In my case, the controller on my motherboard is not particularly fast when it comes to SSD RAID, and I don't see a huge difference in real world performance between the single drive and the RAID0. If I were using an Intel board, RAID0 would probably give me a more noticeable boost. Combined with the fact that the Indilinx controllers on the original Vertex drives do not support the trim operation in RAID mode (only idle GC), it would probably smarter for me to go with two separate drives. Boot time into Windows is also significantly longer with RAID0 compared to a single drive.

If I were to buy a new SSD right now, and this information is given with the caveat that I haven't looked at these in a couple months, I would purchase one with a Sandforce controller, no smaller than 120 GB for a system/application drive. Prices for SSDs are approaching half of what they were a year ago. While they're still expensive compared to mechanical hard disks, they're rapidly becoming an affordable option. And swapping your hard drive for a solid state is hands down the most significant improvement you will ever make to your system.
User avatar
Rofladin
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:03 am

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:14 am

Anandtech has a look at the new SSDs here http://www.anandtech.com/show/4159/ocz- ... 2500-ssd/1

Rofladin wrote:Defragging as in swapping around chunks of data, using up writes on my limited-use NAND memory? Ugh...


This isn't really that big a deal, assuming you don't have a really cheapo drive. The second page of his article talks about NAND mortality.
In eight months I only used 1/300th of the lifespan of the drive.

The other drives we had deployed internally are even healthier. It turns out I'm a bit of a write hog.


So in general, I wouldn't worry about it. In specific, I make damn sure I have backups of data I care about.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby cerwillis » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:07 pm

I wonder if you guys may have dated info with your loyalty to Sandforce controllers. The one that I am looking at is a Marvell controller, and search results on newegg seem to agree:

Sandforce

Marvell
Mistawillis - Cerwillis - Turbowillis - Evilan
<Silent Resolve> Durotan/SW:TOR Shii-Cho
Miniwillis <PK> SC
User avatar
cerwillis
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:00 am

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby laterna » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:32 pm

theckhd wrote:
laterna wrote:Its not necessarily a bad one, but its not the best. I have a crucial one too, but mine is the C300 series

The best SSD is currently considered the C300. It does an extremely smart trick, where it sacrifices write speed, for read speed(at small capacities. at larger capacities it recovers write speeds). Which is an 100% good thing. You'll only ever put your OS, WoW and whatever game you want on it, so essentially, your write speed is insignifigant. You read speed being even faster than normal SSD's, makes it awesome.


How does this compare to SandForce drives, like the Corsair Force F-120? I've been thinking about buying a second SSD for my system drive, in the ~120GB range. I already have WoW on a separate SSD, which seemed to help with texture load times. I'm not sure if putting the system drive on an SSD will make much difference for WoW, but it might significantly speed up boot times.


I'm not the most knowledgeable of people in regards to SSD's, but atleast from the "comparison" topic on OCN, C300's are still the predominant choice around. The sandforce controller is infact pretty good, but I'll point you towards the records on r/w speeds around the globe, in non RAID configs. Usually the top 3 are still the C300 series drives.

In regards to life expectancy, you can't really tell, due to the large amount of skew going around from bad experiences. Remember that as in with every computer component, you only hear about the bad experiences and very rarely the good ones. You're most likely to hear about the SSD that exploded and took the owners legs with him, rather than the ssd that is busy under my PC crunching away ;)
laterna
Moderator
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: SSD System Drives

Postby tankadin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:43 pm

Ok, here's the skinny and info, and personal experiences i've had with SSD's over the last few years.

Firstly, read this article (Link to the conclusion for convinience) http://www.anandtech.com/show/3812/the- ... ssd-c300/9

Secondly, If you're using a Mac, dont buy the Crucial C300 drives as they have no native support for TRIM and rely on using windows 7 to use its built in TRIM feature. It will only die that much faster.

Thirdly, If you want reliability in a SSD over omglightninguberfast performance, buy an Intel X25-M. I have yet to see any major catastrophic failures using them for work, and play. They seem to be THE end all to reliable SSD's. If you have ANY doubts about using an SSD for just basic use, buy that. If you want blistering speed in windows 7, the Crucial C300 256Gb is the fastest on the market right now (for less than $1000's of dollars)

Fourthly, (And I'm not sure thats a proper word) Make sure you follow that tweak guide that was listed earlier in the thread. It is 100% imperative to longevity, and proper performance on your SSD and computer itself. Some of the most important are disabling defrag, removing the Page file entirely (or to a regular hard drive), and also disabling any sleep options for power saving the hard drive. The sleep options cause stuttering and freezing randomly which is the #1 issue people have with that Corsair C300 256Gb, and I havent had the issue once since I disabled these options.

Lastly, If you raid a SSD, there is NO Support for TRIM. Be aware of that. It will eventually degrade performance and you'll hate your SSD even in raid form.

Hope these help!
Image
User avatar
tankadin
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:40 am

PreviousNext

Return to Tech Stuff

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest