Prot PVP @ 85

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:18 pm

Also, Taugrim has a great post on 2H prot. :D Thank you again, sir!

http://taugrim.com/2011/02/20/wow-4-0-6 ... t-2h-prot/
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:47 pm

Why wouldn't you just have a /equip macro for each ability to get the most damage out of it (specifically for CS) or to ensure you can use that ability without having to think "did I switch weapons already"? If it's already got the correct item equipped, wouldn't it just ignore that part?

Example:

Avenger's Shield:
/equip 1h
/equip shield
/cast AS

Shield of the Righteous:
/equip 1h
/equip shield
/cast SotR

Crusader's Strike:
/equip 2h
/cast CS

I realize that would "eat" a lot of macro space, but then you'd never have to worry about if you have the right items equipped for each spell. The only reason I could see that being an issue is if you actually want to keep your sword & board for awhile to reduce some inc damage. In which case you could still have the 2nd CS macro.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby DexterBelgium » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:24 am

I think the problem with that is the fact that the weapon swap (in combat) consumes a GCD, which makes macro's using a gearswitch essential "doubletap" macros (hit once to gearswap, once more to CS/AS/...), using a LOT of GCDs. You don't wanna be doing that everytime, because any advantage from 2H is going to be eaten up by that additional downtime inbetween attacks.
Image
DexterBelgium
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:10 am

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:03 am

DexterBelgium wrote:I think the problem with that is the fact that the weapon swap (in combat) consumes a GCD, which makes macro's using a gearswitch essential "doubletap" macros (hit once to gearswap, once more to CS/AS/...), using a LOT of GCDs. You don't wanna be doing that everytime, because any advantage from 2H is going to be eaten up by that additional downtime inbetween attacks.

If you have to swap to use ability X anyway... then you aren't using any additional GCDs. Unless it still consumes the GCD when you already have the correct weapons equipped...

Example:

I've just swapped to Sword & Board to use AS. For my next GCD I want to use my 3 HP SotR before swapping back to my 2h for another CS.

Would having the /equip S&B with SotR consume an additional CD as it tries to re-equip the S&B you already have equipped? If so, then tying it together with any other ability would be a bad idea all around and you should just have one macro for equipping S&B and one for equipping the 2h.

If it doesn't affect it, then I don't understand where you're saying there are additional GCDs being eaten up, when you'd HAVE to swap to S&B for AS/SotR, and you'd likely WANT to swap to the 2h for CS. If you don't WANT to swap to a 2h for CS, then this entire discussion is moot.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby DexterBelgium » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:02 am

You're right on the fact that it doesn't (as far as I know) eat a GCD if the items are already equipped, so indeed, "no problem there".

So the problem is not huge. But that is only if you plan on doing the whole 2h prot thing anyway, which, as one of its principal disadvantages that I can see, has that the closest thing we have to a "gap closer" on kiting casters (AS) is an extra GCD removed from us. Will depend a little whether this doesn't feel too "gappy" waiting on GCDs every once in a while.

On the other hand, I've seen people macro the gearswap AFTER skill use. I remember way back when you could swap gear while the GCD was running, which meant you effectively swapped gear without an extra GCD. I think this is the thinking behind a "CS+Gearswap" macro (rather than a "Gearswap+CS" one). That takes a little extra planning tho.
Image
DexterBelgium
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:10 am

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:29 am

Skye1013 wrote:Avenger's Shield:
/equip 1h
/equip shield
/cast AS


Weapon swaps will INITIATE a global cooldown, which means your AS will be delayed. However, they can happen INSIDE a global CD. So, a macro of

/cast AS
/equip 2H

should still only consume one GCD, as the equip happens after AS is cast. I am pretty sure I'm correct on this, but would need to test it later to be sure. I just set up a plan weapon swap macro for mouse-up and mouse-down that I roll in the middle of GCDs, and it seems to minimize my frustration.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:42 pm

Scum Cleave at 2016 now.

Very little signs of slowing down with over 85% win ratio and MMR sitting above 2k.

We've got most of the regular 2k+ combo's down pat now but just working out annoying ones like Frost Mage (overpowered anyway) Disc Priest. Ret paladins just leave when they can't get either of us below 90% HP which makes me incredibly happy.

Double DPS is usually a guaranteed win with the most difficult one being Spriest and Frost Mage but we've got some ways to work around it now. Any double DPS with a melee of any kind is completely destroyed, we just split up and keep self heals to maximum.

My partner said he's having more fun running this combo than when he was playing unholy in any setup so far and he's had 2200 in 3's before. We think our cap out will be around 2100-2200 simply due to the number of Frost Mages in 2's. We can take frost mages with another DPS but when they've got a dedicated healer it just creates issues for us. We're still working out strats and any possible changes to specs, but we seem to be working quite well with each other and the synergy between Protection Paladin and Blood Death Knight is quite surprising. I'm stacking Resil and Stam as much as I can because I tend to get focused, I glyph for SoI and WoG so my self healing and support healing is as high as I can get it. My resil is only 3300 currently and my partner is over 3500. Once I catch up and hit close to 3700 with full epics I think we'll be much more meaty.

Special Note : The 'change' to Vengeance is annoying against some classes, I'd rather not divulge into details in case these classes browse the forums! :D
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:05 pm

What would you suggest for a 3v3 team (or 5v5) with a prot paladin in it? I've been wanting to PvP with one of the things that synergize well with a prot paladin -- blood DK, a melee class, but fear that it may only work well in 2v2. Currently, I am teamed with a hunter friend in guild, and I don't want to drop him despite what seems like poor class synergy.

Right now my options seem to be to do 3s with my hunter friend (and a healer? Another DPS since mine is low?) and find a synergistic 2s teammate on trade chat, or look for 3v3 team on trade chat (or in guild). Biggest problems seem to be that I have no idea what synergizes well in the 3v3 bracket, and finding people in guild with a remotely similar schedule as me. I'd love to hear your insights into what you think would work well.

Right now I have moderate interest from an arms warrior, a hunter, a disc/shadow priest, and a resto druid who has no resilience. Do you think that'd work even remotely well in 5v5?
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:57 pm

Hi Kelaan, did you think of using a Feral Druid in 3's with a Blood DK? That's probably what my 2's partner and I will be trying at some point, just blow all our CD's and try and nuke down one person. If it looks like it's going south then just turtle up as best as we can with my WoG's on the focus target. Stacking Necrotic Strikes with Dancing Rune Weapon and stunning/silencing healers etc. We might give it a shot this weekend, we aren't sure though because we're honestly having so much fun being as annoying as we possibly can in 2's. Had more ret paladins AFK from us kiting them with Chains/AS and just staying in the judgment deadzone lol!

I haven't really had much time to try other makeups but I think a Blood DK is the best partner we can get, they deal reasonable damage and have equal or even better survival than we do. Their abilities go quite well with ours, they have a snare and grip which helps bring people back to us for even more control. Their Necrotic Strike is amazing against healers who are in a tight spot right after a HoJ or Grip. The other important thing that goes so well with a Blood DK is that if melee decides to focus them, they'll be in such a sorry state of mind due to the absorb from their Death Strike giving them Blood Shield.

In this combo I'm usually the focus target so I've decided to bottle up and stack as much resil and stam as I can get. SoI is glyphed and we usually run in with it active just in case it's a double DPS and I need to start spamming self heals. The Divine Plea macro is a godsend for this, free 3 Holy Power for WoG is a must on so many combo's it's not even funny. We're somewhat crippled against priest shields however because the absorb effect won't let SoI proc (Which I think is either a bug, or incredibly stupid since all our other seals proc from absorbs).
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:45 am

Vort wrote:Hi Kelaan, did you think of using a Feral Druid in 3's with a Blood DK?

I ran last night with arms + tree, and it was surprisingly effective. I basically propped up our tree when they got focused. Our losses were to a GOOD double-DPS team that were really fast on swapping targets (and chained CCs etc) - we just couldn't outdo their damage, and I was perma-snared from Desecration. Our other loss was to a double-healer team (enhance/holy pally/disc priest) that we Just. Could. Not. Kill. It was not pretty at all.

I'm not looking forward to 4.1's changes. I use Word of Glory just about all the time to keep my partner(s) alive. On the other hand, now that I'm expertise and hit capped, I'm going to do more damage.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:23 pm

I'm still quite skeptical of the 4.1 WoG change going through. Kind of makes the concept of it useless for PVP as anything other than holy.

Scum Cleave got 2200 last night, but we got a few bad combo's after that and went back down to 2158 :(

I'm still kind of curious why they don't let you get the 2200 gear from 2's, not so much the new weapons but just the different colored armor. Is it that big of a deal?

EDIT: 26/02/11

Got our team back above 2200 for my Death Knight partner since he needed the achievement. Still going strong, but mostly going to just play for points each week now, and see how we go and if teams are good we'll try and push.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:11 am

Vort wrote:I'm still quite skeptical of the 4.1 WoG change going through. Kind of makes the concept of it useless for PVP as anything other than holy.

I experiemented with avoiding using WoG on Friday, and instead using my holy power on damage, when I did matches with my hunter partner. It seemed to actually work out fairly decently still - It's much more of a DPS race, and using damage reduction cooldowns (and a BoP on him ;)) seemed to work out semi-decently. I hope we can play more tonight in order to get rating > 1500.

Scum Cleave got 2200 last night, but we got a few bad combo's after that and went back down to 2158 :(

What's Scum Cleave? arena team name, or a composition nickname? I guess it's blood DK + prot paladin?
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:01 pm

Vort, what spec is your DK partner in 2s?

So far I have played with a rogue, enhancement shaman, boomkin and a resto druid. Biggest problem when playing dual dps is my partner dying due burst and with resto I cant kill shit if they have a healer-combo. Dps I run with has 2700-3000 resilience, which seems to be too low to be viable above 1600 rating.
Sleetza
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:05 am

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:15 pm

@Kelaan & Sleetza:

Scum Cleave is his arena team's name (given to him by someone that called the composition that...) Based on what I've been reading, it's Prot pally and Blood DK. With the "nerf" to WoG, we'll see if it still holds up as well.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3950
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:46 pm

To sum it up.

Scum Cleave was the nickname given to our team makeup by my partners friend, due to us being a very annoying and 'SCUMMY' combo. The actual team name is "Shield Block Goes On 6". We play Protection Paladin and Blood Death Knight, the reason for this was at first a joke but we found that we could survive through most double dps teams quite well and when required we could burst teams down and control a fight reasonably well.

Using WoG instead of SotR is critical in this team, I make sure we're both topped whenever possible and during stuns we push back the healer or just stay alive in whatever way we can. SotR is only used as a burst when we're both topped, the last thing we want is to be put on the back foot and fall behind on our HP.

4.1 WoG change will kill the team, Blood DK's already have just as strong if not stronger survivability in pvp than Protection Paladins and I'm the one getting nerfed incredibly hard. Looks like patch notes also just updated to say the DK Blood Shield will only work in Blood Presence, this is an issue truth be told but nothing like the issue I face with a 20 second WoG. I dislike the change because it's only fixing a side-effect of a much greater problem in PVE.

We're back at 2203 now, it's good fun still but if the WoG change goes through (like I said previously many times) we cannot possibly compete anymore.

These changes suggest that some people QQ'd about coming up against our team tbh :wink:

If you do have any questions about the team makeup just send me a tell.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Off-specs & Other Classes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 0 guests

cron

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 0 guests