Remove Advertisements

Threat value of EG come 4.1

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Celyn » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:04 pm

I have not seen anything on this in this forum and checked Thecks Threat thread and didnt see anything on this so if this has already been discussed i apologize.

Okay i originally posted this in the official wow forums and since i didnt see anything on this here i thought id post it here so you can all tear my math apart and call me a noob. =P

Seeing as we cant use WoG in back to back EG procs this makes EG a threat talent in my mind. So the question of if it is worth taking should require some simple math.

Assuming you use WoG at 3 Holy Power every time its up and my tooltip says my SotR hits for 8058damage this means its average damage with SD factored in is:

8058(0.5)+8058*2*0.5=12087 damage.

Since i can get only one WoG off every 21 seconds and only have a 30% chance to proc EG this means its worth

or 12087damage*0.3/10.5seconds=172.6 dps or 86.3 dps per point.

Now EG major competition for our talent points is SotP so i need to find out what its worth based on my stats. I cant use the threat thread because i calculated its worth using my own stats, and therefore need to determine the DPS worth of SotP for me in order to have a correct comparison.


Using Seal of truth with no vengeance my censure does and 680 damage every 3 seconds at 5 stacks

It deals 9% of weapon's damage as well. My avg damage is 2079 so it deals 187damage.

My melee swing speed is 2.6 and i have a special every 1.5seconds. However AS/HW do not deal seal damage so over the course of 1 full rotation im using 6 attacks over 10.5seconds. Grand total of 0.956 attacks per second.

Assuming im attacked once every 2 seconds which i block 46.66% of the time i have a 20% chance of proccing reckoning on my next 4swings. So over 21 seconds i would block 4.9 times so id get reckoning every 0.233 seconds. Based on this im gonna assume that i pretty much have reckoning up 100% of the time. So i would get 1.2 melees per 2.6seconds. So with that figured in im getting 1.03attacks per second.

2539 dmg for judging at 0 stacks, 3372 dmg at 5 stacks

So my total seal damage would be (680/3seconds)+187*1.03+3372/10.5seconds=740.4damage per second

12% of that is 88.9dps. For 2 points that would be 44.4 dps per point


Sources of Error: No vengeance factored in, assuming WoG is used on CD, assuming no misses/dodges/parries, crit from other sources, the global cooldown used to cast SotR after WoG. Ignoring miss/parry/dodge/block chance of the mob. I used my own stats as a sources. My calc for the value of Reckoning is probably off. Probably something else you guys will flame me for =P

Conclusion: For a tank who uses WoG on Cd with no vengeance EG is a better threat talent then SotP. As vengeance is applied this difference in threat would increase. Therefore (using my stats) EG is a better threat talent come 4.1 than SotP.

My profile if you want to check my math:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... d/advanced

The Wowforums thread as well:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2140505958

Thank you for your time and patience and sorry if i have any mathematical errors.
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
User avatar
Celyn
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:50 pm

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Jeremoot » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:30 pm

It's far too early to make these calls in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if EG is changed to a completely different talent.

Another thing to consider, if we're using ShoR more often and they don't change Vengeance, threat is going to be an even bigger laughingstock than it is live. In that case, Seal of Truth would be a seal we would use exclusively for the glyphed expertise (if you were not already). Now correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not throwing any numbers on the table, but with WoG becoming a 20 second cooldown, the chance of a missed CS/HotR causing us to have a delayed WoG becomes more unlikely. That would reduce the survivability value of expertise in terms of DTPS vs HPS gained from Wogging. This should put Seal of Insight's HPS gain ahead of 10 expertise if it wasn't already. Still, I don't believe we can make any of those assumptions yet.
User avatar
Jeremoot
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Kihra » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:58 pm

Celyn wrote:However AS/HW do not deal seal damage so over the course of 1 full rotation im using 6 attacks over 10.5seconds.


Avenger's Shield does Seal damage now (as well as stacking Censure).
Kihra
 
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Celyn » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:04 pm

Jeremoot wrote:It's far too early to make these calls in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if EG is changed to a completely different talent.

Another thing to consider, if we're using ShoR more often and they don't change Vengeance, threat is going to be an even bigger laughingstock than it is live. In that case, Seal of Truth would be a seal we would use exclusively for the glyphed expertise (if you were not already). Now correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not throwing any numbers on the table, but with WoG becoming a 20 second cooldown, the chance of a missed CS/HotR causing us to have a delayed WoG becomes more unlikely. That would reduce the survivability value of expertise in terms of DTPS vs HPS gained from Wogging. This should put Seal of Insight's HPS gain ahead of 10 expertise if it wasn't already. Still, I don't believe we can make any of those assumptions yet.


You are most certainly correct that its a bit too early (and about Seal of truth).

I have just seen alot of threads saying that EG was worthless and I wanted to see if this was true or not. I thought that to find out it would just take some simple algebra so i threw this together to see.

Thought this would be the best place to see if my numbers were close to correct.

Kihra wrote:
Celyn wrote:However AS/HW do not deal seal damage so over the course of 1 full rotation im using 6 attacks over 10.5seconds.


Avenger's Shield does Seal damage now (as well as stacking Censure).


Ah i knew AS stacked censure but i didnt know that it added seal damage and when checking my logs i must have missed that part. Ill redo my calculations.

Thank you.
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
User avatar
Celyn
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:50 pm

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:06 pm

Celyn wrote:I have not seen anything on this in this forum and checked Thecks Threat thread and didnt see anything on this so if this has already been discussed i apologize.

I wasn't going to bother working this out analytically until we find out whether EG is getting changed or not. That said, you made a number of errors. The biggest one is ignoring Vengeance, which will skew everything pretty significantly.


Celyn wrote:Assuming you use WoG at 3 Holy Power every time its up and my tooltip says my SotR hits for 8058damage this means its average damage with SD factored in is:

8058(0.5)+8058*2*0.5=12087 damage.

In addition to Vengeance turning that 8k into 20-25k, that's not the correct way to account for Sacred Duty since Judgement and SotR can both miss. See the "Appendix: Analytical model of 939" if you really want to see how you'd try to account for SD properly. Also note that that model is based on guaranteed holy power generation, which means 1 Judgement per SotR. The model is even more complicated now that there's a chance we get two Judgements off between SotRs.


Celyn wrote:Since i can get only one WoG off every 21 seconds and only have a 30% chance to proc EG this means its worth

or 12087damage*0.3/10.5seconds=172.6 dps or 86.3 dps per point.

This isn't going to be correct either. You have a 30% chance to proc a "free" 3-point SotR every 20-21 seconds, provided you're casting WoG on cooldown. That SotR also costs a GCD, which pushes back the rest of your rotation. So at best that's (SotR_damage)*0.3/(20+1.5/mdf.mehit), not (SotR_damage)*0.3/10.5. Also note that since you're pushing back the rest of the rotation by one or more GCDs to cast SotR, you lose some additional DPS from pushback. So you can't accurately evaluate EG's DPS contribution without defining what the rest of the rotation looks like.

Celyn wrote:Now EG major competition for our talent points is SotP so i need to find out what its worth based on my stats. I cant use the threat thread because i calculated its worth using my own stats, and therefore need to determine the DPS worth of SotP for me in order to have a correct comparison.

Using Seal of truth with no vengeance my censure does and 680 damage every 3 seconds at 5 stacks

It deals 9% of weapon's damage as well. My avg damage is 2079 so it deals 187damage.

My melee swing speed is 2.6 and i have a special every 1.5seconds. However AS/HW do not deal seal damage so over the course of 1 full rotation im using 6 attacks over 10.5seconds. Grand total of 0.956 attacks per second.

Assuming im attacked once every 2 seconds which i block 46.66% of the time i have a 20% chance of proccing reckoning on my next 4swings. So over 21 seconds i would block 4.9 times so id get reckoning every 0.233 seconds. Based on this im gonna assume that i pretty much have reckoning up 100% of the time. So i would get 1.2 melees per 2.6seconds. So with that figured in im getting 1.03attacks per second.

I'm not sure the variation of SotP with gear is going to be enough to make much difference. The MATLAB model is probably a close enough value. At the very least, it's going to be a better estimate than your model, since you're ignoring Vengeance, assuming 100% Reckoning uptime, and the fact that seals don't proc off of misses.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Call to Arms 5.x, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7658
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Celyn » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:22 am

theckhd wrote:I wasn't going to bother working this out analytically until we find out whether EG is getting changed or not. That said, you made a number of errors. The biggest one is ignoring Vengeance, which will skew everything pretty significantly.


Yeah sorry. I just wanted to see if the people who were declaring EG worthless after the change was announced were right or not.


In addition to Vengeance turning that 8k into 20-25k, that's not the correct way to account for Sacred Duty since Judgement and SotR can both miss. See the "Appendix: Analytical model of 939" if you really want to see how you'd try to account for SD properly. Also note that that model is based on guaranteed holy power generation, which means 1 Judgement per SotR. The model is even more complicated now that there's a chance we get two Judgements off between SotRs.


You're right didnt even think about misses >.<

This isn't going to be correct either. You have a 30% chance to proc a "free" 3-point SotR every 20-21 seconds, provided you're casting WoG on cooldown. That SotR also costs a GCD, which pushes back the rest of your rotation. So at best that's (SotR_damage)*0.3/(20+1.5/mdf.mehit), not (SotR_damage)*0.3/10.5. Also note that since you're pushing back the rest of the rotation by one or more GCDs to cast SotR, you lose some additional DPS from pushback. So you can't accurately evaluate EG's DPS contribution without defining what the rest of the rotation looks like.


Didn't even think of that. /Doh.

I'm not sure the variation of SotP with gear is going to be enough to make much difference. The MATLAB model is probably a close enough value. At the very least, it's going to be a better estimate than your model, since you're ignoring Vengeance, assuming 100% Reckoning uptime, and the fact that seals don't proc off of misses.

Thanks. I had a feeling I made alot of mistakes and knew this forum would set me straight.

I tried to calc my own value for SotP instead of using yours thinking that the difference in my 333 weapon would cause large variation. Sorry about that >.<

Ill try and work on my calculations more and use your link this time...though i will follow everyone's advise and wait a bit to see if any of the changes are added to the PTR.

Hopefully ill do a better job next time.

Thank you again.
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
User avatar
Celyn
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:50 pm

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Xayton » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:34 pm

Kihra wrote:
Celyn wrote:However AS/HW do not deal seal damage so over the course of 1 full rotation im using 6 attacks over 10.5seconds.


Avenger's Shield does Seal damage now (as well as stacking Censure).


I am rather sure AS doesn't proc extra Seal damage. You might be confusing normal Censure ticks with extra seal damage. Don't quote me though.
Xayton <Notéd> Llane
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.
User avatar
Xayton
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 5:25 am
Location: Sanity

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby theckhd » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:02 pm

AS does, in fact, proc Seal of Truth and apply Censure on all targets in 4.0.6a. It was tested on PTR and has been reconfirmed on live.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Call to Arms 5.x, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7658
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Xayton » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:26 pm

theckhd wrote:AS does, in fact, proc Seal of Truth and apply Censure on all targets in 4.0.6a. It was tested on PTR and has been reconfirmed on live.


Hmm, I knew it put up a stack of Truth but I never noticed an extra tick...although I wasn't looking at my log, I was only watching scrolling combat text.
Xayton <Notéd> Llane
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.
User avatar
Xayton
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 5:25 am
Location: Sanity

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby theckhd » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:59 pm

Just double-checked it on a dummy, standing at range:
Code: Select all
Theck's Judgement of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 4695 Holy.
Theck's Seal of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 317 Holy.
Theck's Seal of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 435 Holy.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 898 Holy damage from Theck's Censure.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 899 Holy damage from Theck's Censure.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 899 Holy damage from Theck's Censure.
Theck's Seal of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 449 Holy.
Theck's Avenger's Shield hits Raider's Training Dummy for 7146 Holy.
Theck Dazed - Avenger's Shield failed. Raider's Training Dummy was immune


Judgement triggers two SoT procs (J + JotJ) and AS triggers one.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Call to Arms 5.x, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7658
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Xayton » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:45 pm

theckhd wrote:Just double-checked it on a dummy, standing at range:
Code: Select all
Theck's Judgement of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 4695 Holy.
Theck's Seal of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 317 Holy.
Theck's Seal of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 435 Holy.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 898 Holy damage from Theck's Censure.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 899 Holy damage from Theck's Censure.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 899 Holy damage from Theck's Censure.
Theck's Seal of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 449 Holy.
Theck's Avenger's Shield hits Raider's Training Dummy for 7146 Holy.
Theck Dazed - Avenger's Shield failed. Raider's Training Dummy was immune


Judgement triggers two SoT procs (J + JotJ) and AS triggers one.


So it does. It is rather odd that Truth shows up before AS though. Oh well, I stand corrected.
Xayton <Notéd> Llane
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.
User avatar
Xayton
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 5:25 am
Location: Sanity

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Jaitee » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:05 am

Xayton wrote:
theckhd wrote:Just double-checked it on a dummy, standing at range:
Code: Select all
Theck's Judgement of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 4695 Holy.
Theck's Seal of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 317 Holy.
Theck's Seal of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 435 Holy.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 898 Holy damage from Theck's Censure.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 899 Holy damage from Theck's Censure.
Raider's Training Dummy suffers 899 Holy damage from Theck's Censure.
Theck's Seal of Truth hits Raider's Training Dummy for 449 Holy.
Theck's Avenger's Shield hits Raider's Training Dummy for 7146 Holy.
Theck Dazed - Avenger's Shield failed. Raider's Training Dummy was immune


Judgement triggers two SoT procs (J + JotJ) and AS triggers one.


So it does. It is rather odd that Truth shows up before AS though. Oh well, I stand corrected.


just went and did some rough testing of this censures application is applied instantly (even on the targets the shield chains too) while the shield travels through the air its damage isnt applied for a second untill it hits...dosnt really affect anything that i can think of though
Jaitee
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:11 am

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby theckhd » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:53 am

It's just a quirk of AS. The interrupt, daze, silence, Censure, and SoT procs all trigger instantaneously, while the shield damage itself obeys regular projectile mechanics.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Call to Arms 5.x, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7658
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Xayton » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:50 pm

theckhd wrote:It's just a quirk of AS. The interrupt, daze, silence, Censure, and SoT procs all trigger instantaneously, while the shield damage itself obeys regular projectile mechanics.


That explains why I didn't notice it while watching scrolling combat text, I was looking for a proc while AS hit not before.
Xayton <Notéd> Llane
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.
User avatar
Xayton
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 5:25 am
Location: Sanity

Re: Threat value of EG come 4.1

Postby Jaitee » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:14 am

theckhd wrote:It's just a quirk of AS. The interrupt, daze, silence, Censure, and SoT procs all trigger instantaneously, while the shield damage itself obeys regular projectile mechanics.



are you sure just did some testing then and while i know from experience the interrupt is instant as is seal of truth but just throwing my shield at the dummies ill see the censure debuff apply instantly then my shield hits and the silence effect applies then a fraction of a second later the daze effect applies

i just did this testing by eye watching the shield travel and the debuffs apply im not really sure how to look through the combat logs and find the timing for stuff (pretty new at using the combat logs for stuff)

and unlike the timing of censure being applied the timing of the silence and interupt is somewhat relevant (more to prot pvp though) since if the interupt and silence are applied instantly then its till 3 seconds of them not casting either way but if the travel time affects it then with lets say a 1 second travel time you have 4 seconds of them not casting
Jaitee
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:11 am

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSNbot Media and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: MSNbot Media and 1 guest