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Void Reaver

A'lar, Void Reaver, Solarian, Kael'thas

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Postby Mortehl » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:46 am

My mitigation is incredibly low because I'm gunning for 800-1k effective Spell damage. He hits like a female blood elf prot paladin (read girl) anyway, so its not like you're going to die.

I'd say I'm there with 15.8-16.5k buffed hp, 16ish% dodge 16ish% parry, 19% block with 515ish +def rating. Uncrushable for sure, but the avoidance and stam are way down.

I reiterate: VR does NOT hit hard. The key here is aggro aggro aggro. Pretend you don't even have an HP bar. The most valuable thing I'm taking from my gear for him is an almost 9k mana bar.

My gear for him is 4/5 T4 1/5 T5 (new addition :D), mag eye, +spell damage bracers, boot of protector, belt of guardian, spell damage cloak. The one nod I do give towards HP is I wear my vengeance card instead of a second spell damage trinket.
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Postby Anubisknight » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:51 am

Guess I'll try using some more spell damage gear next time we kill him.
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Postby Marlae » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:57 pm

The best tank for holding aggro on VR I've found are a paladin to fill the opening tank roll, usually down to roughly 70% or lower and a druid later in the fight. I've seen a druid tank hold aggro on VR from 40% down.
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Postby Saladin » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:21 pm

I usually hold him pretty well for quite a bit of the fight..

the last time we did him my initial judgement got resisted.. spell hit ftl.. and a warr got him to start.. so i popped everything i had (consecrate JOV 5 from 2 - 5 stacks, AW and spell dmg trink) and managed to get him after the third knockback and kept him for quite a bit... so it IS POSSIBLE to pick him up with enough spell dmg (i have sanc aura in my build) .. even after not getting him to start off
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Postby sindorei » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:06 pm

Saladin wrote:I usually hold him pretty well for quite a bit of the fight..

the last time we did him my initial judgement got resisted.. spell hit ftl.. and a warr got him to start.. so i popped everything i had (consecrate JOV 5 from 2 - 5 stacks, AW and spell dmg trink) and managed to get him after the third knockback and kept him for quite a bit... so it IS POSSIBLE to pick him up with enough spell dmg (i have sanc aura in my build) .. even after not getting him to start off


u should open with AS/CON/JUDGE and then re seal of light/wisdom/crusader , apply judge and then SOR/V
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:20 pm

sindorei wrote:
Saladin wrote:I usually hold him pretty well for quite a bit of the fight..

the last time we did him my initial judgement got resisted.. spell hit ftl.. and a warr got him to start.. so i popped everything i had (consecrate JOV 5 from 2 - 5 stacks, AW and spell dmg trink) and managed to get him after the third knockback and kept him for quite a bit... so it IS POSSIBLE to pick him up with enough spell dmg (i have sanc aura in my build) .. even after not getting him to start off


u should open with AS/CON/JUDGE and then re seal of light/wisdom/crusader , apply judge and then SOR/V


There's no AS when he's got sanc aura in his build... sounds nice for long-term threat, though.

Last night was our first VR night... they put me on 2ndary threat duty. Very hard to keep up with the rest of the tanks, imo. Tonight I get a shot at pulling him... we'll see how that goes. We hit the enrage barrier with 13% to go, but our main issues are healing the tanks and mostly just people running away from orbs; our tank corps has enough tps to keep the ceiling up there for most of the fight. I also recommended we use MDs on the lowest tank at the time, not the highest, to keep the ceiling up.

I've experienced just what the OP has... when I eventually did get aggro last night, I was at 1/2 health and living HoT to HoT, eventually dying without ever seeing full hps. Even so, I'm probably going to forego uncrushability for more spelldamage, tonight, and see how long I can hold him. Oh, and WTB T4 shoulders... sigh. Abrahmis just aren't cutting it.
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Postby Kellann » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:05 pm

I had an MT build first time, and hadn't geared down enough for SD - but was not slated to begin the pull==>I got 15th turn or something....it was sad.
Probably buffed SD~300

2nd time, I had the same build, but I played with gearswapping (read: barely uncrushable & only after libram/sword/shield swap when it's my turn) ==> got 3-4 'turns' and at least felt useful
Buffed SD ~200 tanking, ~400 when catching up

Didn't really like how hard it was, or how many consumables went into that effort, so I re-evaluated and got sanctity and what I consider a good OT build (highest unsupported OT threat build?)

This time I STILL did the gearswapping, but the difference was in the lack of AS, but gaining the 10% as well as the SD juggle being 500~600 (a few upgrades, and a shattrath SD flask)
==>I kept VR's attention for quite nearly half the ~8min fight =D



Oh, another nifty bit for those with mana trouble (especially if you're trying to claw your way up for the 2nd or 3rd turn) is that a druid accidentally giving you ennervate is sweet :) aside from that, keep those TK pots saved up, and farm up some dark runes from Scholo or something.
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Postby Tekkel » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:24 pm

So I tried VR for the first time today. I packed about 500 buffed SD. There was 2 warriors with me who are our usual MT's. So I opened up with a jotc, AS, conc and started with some SOR for fast aggro. Tanked him all the way till they called a reset for too many ranged dieing. My fellow tanks were bitching me really hard for aggro drop next time. So started slow, let our MT build up aggro and then took over after the first knockback. After that it took me 30 secs of just casting holy shield before he swapped target again so other tanks could catch up again. After that I regained it and tanked it all the way to 7% when I got killed...

Healers were really slacking but I was resisting like 80% of the knockbacks on me and those are like 25k threat reducements? Is that normal and should I just drop aggro for fellow MT's?

I got the feeling my MT doesn't like me building so much threat that he gets rage starvation and no other tank can be 2nd on the aggro meter without other dps holding back. We killed him easy with 22 people like 2 min before enrage timer though,
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:55 pm

Any tank who doesn't have aggro is going to get grumpy about starvation... except maybe a feral. We have the same issues as warriors do, really. Even when I put up JoW, I have to mana pot every cooldown just to stay competative *with* misdirects, because all I can do is S/JoR and consecrate, and AS every 30 seconds. No holy shield, no ret aura, less damage taken means less mana from SA means less threat from energy gains (I love this bit btw... I held ranged aggro on a falconer while tanking the bird packs before a'lar's room when its tank died.)

IMO warriors have more rage-efficient threat and better rage gen while OTing than we have mana gen. Without S/JoW, we basically have 0 regen, while they at least get some rage from white dmg. But if we use S/JoW, then we're further limiting our threat by not using JotC and S/JoR. It's just not pretty.

Knockaways are 25%, not 25k, so they will put you at SOME ceiling after about 5 minutes, regardless of what your TPS is. 1000 tps is about 120k threat total before you reach your balance point. They happen every 30 seconds. However, knockaways are melee attacks and do damage, and so they can be missed/dodged/parried. If you get lucky, your threat ceiling will spike up much higher if you avoid a lot of them.

My healers apparently can't figure out how to heal with target of target, so I generally die when he switches to me from another tank. :( I've started putting on more mitigation gear and less threat gear, dropping from ~500 spelldamage to ~350 spelldamage to gain 1500 hps. I die less, but I have less threat. I thought 15k hps buffed would be enough. O.o We tanks also /rw who the new target it when it switches... I'm hoping I can keep more threat gear on now that I'm about 1k hps ahead thanks to 2.3.

We use MDs on the lowest of our 3 tanks, not the highest. Since the knockaways are %s, it makes more sense to keep all 3 as high as possible to spread them out, instead of trying to beef one person up very high, since that basically diminishes the effect of the MD.

If your other tanks are grumpy, tell them it's the kill that's important, not how much damage they get to take. Being "kind" and letting the aggro cycle around may or may not improve the raid's ability to pump out as much damage as quickly as possible. If you got lucky and avoided most knockaways, don't expect that to happen every week and your other tanks may get more play time as a result of bad luck, too.
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Postby Crusherus » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:27 am

I had about 450 spell damage when I finally got to tank him last night. MT warrior pulled Void Reaver and started tanking, I started building threat as fast as I could. I wasn't even showing up on KTM. Everyone was like WTF? A few seconds later, 2 of the main healers ate some orbs and the MT went down so we reset. I got about 5-6th place on KTM at best.

Then I realized I forgot Righteous Fury.

Let's just say I know what people mean now when they say threat rocket. I managed to hold VR until 35% before he finally switched to the MT warrior who managed to keep above everyone else. Then it was back and forth between the 2 of us for the rest of the fight. I kinda feel bad for our 3rd Warrior tank who didn't get touched. Still, quite the awesome experience. I also enjoyed everyone freaking out when the boss mods announced orbs on me after I VR switched back to targetting me. Good times. We lost the same 2 main healers on that try but I somehow managed to stay alive between the 4 remaining healers. Dropped him with over 2 minutes to spare. Overpowered SoV stack REALLY helps here.
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Postby Exodius » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:00 am

Well, I got to see VW for the first time today. It was not good. :cry:

We had 4 tanks going in - 2 prot warriors, feral druid and myself. I have the poorest gear, but from what I understand the gear should be good enough.

The first time in I fight tooth and nail for aggro and hold him for what felt like a while after a couple of knockbacks from the other tanks...

The only problem was during that time I was getting no heals. Not one. AD kicks in, health stone gets eaten... I stay alive with aggro... yet eventually I drop.

I complain, so they start me off as the first tank.

The only problem was that he aggroed at 35 yards or something. I panicked and cancelled my AS, so any aggro lead I would have had spontaneously disappeared. It then once again does not take long for me to die.

The warrior top tank was saying I was taking too much damage. I did have a stat runner going, but forgot to check it to disagree with him before I left the raid for the night.

We did have too much melee dps though. 5 or 6 rogues I think, and a ret paladin too.

It's just the ret paladin was in a group with 3 rogues and the feral druid to maximise the rogues dps.

I think the healers were struggling in general though. Too much melee dps, too many people getting caught in the pounding, not enough area healers to compensate for such problems. There was one restoration shaman and a feral druid, but no CoH priests (though 3 holy priests there were).

It just felt like... ah, it just makes me feel sad. I can break down all the things and understand it all conceptually, but I just felt people have seen me now as a poor damage taker and bad threat generator. :cry:

The MT plans to get me geared more from Kara and such. I just fear I might have left a bad taste in people's mouths...

Sigh... I can run heroics as a solo tank without a care in the world. I just can't seem to get this whole raiding off tank tank team thing worked out. :(
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Postby Blaen99 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:12 am

Exodius: Ugh. Classical BS there.

You never will "take too much damage from VR" unless you are crittable.

Hell, I think I'm like 0.04% crittable in my tank gear for him.

The healers failed. Utterly. That's it.

I mean, there is NO EFFING WAY you can take too much damage from VR unless you are like not wearing items or are wearing cloth in some slots or some crap or are crittable.

Uncrushable doesn't even matter on VR.
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Postby YoYoMa » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:53 am

Well I wouldn't rush so fast to say your healers failed you. It sounds like a couple of things were at play here.

First you've got 11 in melee range (6 rogues, 1 ret, 4 tanks). That's already going to put a strain on groups new to VR. If possible try to grab a few more ranged for this fight while you are learning it.

Also, less ranged means more healers are going to be targeted with orbs meaning they'll need to be running more. We are a decently geared group but sometimes you get bad orb combos that take healers out of the fight temporarily that could easily cause your death. No fault of anybody's there.

Also, I haven't seen your gear or stats so it is possible you aren't geared for the fight, at least compared to the other tanks. Maybe you also weren't packing enough spell damage for threat if that was a concern. I don't agree with Blaen, stay uncrushable and uncrittable. Why put extra strain on your healers if they are struggling.

Lastly, get hunters to help out with MD for extra threat. It all helps. Good luck.
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Postby Exodius » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:26 am

Sig should be working... It gives the basic numbers, armory should give you the details, unless I've logged off in soloing gear again. :P

It's around 13k unbuffed health, 15-16k buffed, 14k armor, 250-300 spell damage, uncrush, uncrit...

From what I have read around the stats should be fine. :?
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Postby YoYoMa » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:38 am

I can't view the armory from here but the stats seem fine except spell damage. I usually run with about 750 spell damage for this fight and that doesn't include judging crusader which I also do until I loose aggro to one of the other tanks, so I'd be up towards 1k usually (before I even pop trinkets, wings, or pots).

So I'd say you are going to have a threat issue on this fight with that low of spell damage. When I was learning the fight I also was popping destructions potions timed with either my spell damage trinket or wings for added burst. This is a fight that you can shine on if you come to the party prepared.

More threat means you should be able to go with less tanks too. 4 is really overkill imo and you are just gimping your dps.
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