Alternative to the 20 second WoG

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Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Rhadegund » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:53 am

I'd like to discuss an alternative for the PTR 20 second WoG cooldown.

I'd intended to write this up and post it on the official paladin forums but due to

1) Me being at work and it being the end of the month.
2) Me being useless at writing this sort of report.
3) Having plans for tonight and tomorrow.

I just can't get it done.

I'd like to "crowd source" the draft to bring it up to the standard that might get a developer's attention on and have it posted to both the EU and US sites when it has been throughly polished. My main idea was to use the developer's words that

"We’d rather these two specs spend most of their Holy Power on damage-dealing abilities, with occasional healing."

would still apply using the proposal but by putting WoG on a 20 second CD they would be forcing us into a "damage, damage, heal" subrotation on our finishers which would eliminate choice and remove distinctions between good and bad players.


Someone else may have had this idea before, I've searched but can't find it. I don't claim I was the first!

The very very rough draft

Subject: An alternative to the 4.1 PTR 20 sec WoG cd

Introduction:
The Blizzard developers have introduced a 20 second cooldown on the Word of Glory heal in the initial 4.1 PTR build. The reasons for this are clearly stated in the notes

“Word of Glory: We want Retribution and Protection paladins to have reasonable healing on themselves or others, but we know paladins sometimes feel like they can’t use their Holy Power on anything but their heals in some situations. We’d rather these two specs spend most of their Holy Power on damage-dealing abilities, with occasional healing.”

This post is not intended to discuss whether or not a change was needed to WoG as clearly the developers have made up their minds on the subject but rather to propose an alternative route that will allow a choice to be maintained between which “finisher” to use albeit at a cost.

This is written entirely from the point of a protection paladin and does not consider PvP or retribution paladin but from what I understand the problems are similar.

Solution
The proposed cost is to impose a debuff on either the Non-holy Paladin who uses the ability or the target of the ability which
a) Creates a healing penalty of x% (lets say 50% for now) on further uses of WoG
b) Lasts x seconds (lets say 20 seconds to begin with)
c) Stacks

The main option here being either the caster or the receiver receiving the debuff each of which has its pros and cons. It is assumed that the debuff would only effect WoG heals coming from the same paladin in order to not harm Holy Paladin healing.

The solution still allows a good paladin a choice on which finisher to use their holy power on but imposes penalties for consistently healing the same target with it. At the moment it is a no brainer to use WoG when a reasonable threat lead has been established but the proposed debuff would alter the parameters of the choice once a certain level of debuffs had been reached or depending on the situation

Situiation 1
I’ve established a 500k threat lead, I’ve got 80% health and my healer has 90% mana.

Current: WoG
PTR: no clear choice, probably WoG
Proposed system: WoG

Situiation 2
I’ve established a 500k threat lead, I’ve got 80% health and my healer has 90% mana I used WoG on my last 3 points of holy power.

Current: WoG
PTR: SotR – no choice
Proposed system: SoTR

Situiation 3
I’m at 15% health, I just used WoG to push myself from 15% health as I feared the next shot could kill me and the next boss hit took me back to 15%, the boss has enraged, I’m getting beaten senseless and all my cooldowns are gone.

Current: WoG
PTR: SotR – no choice
Proposed system: WoG but at a reduced amount. It might save me, it might not

The PTR option of 20 second cooldown eliminates any choice a paladin might have I the matter and forces us to all act the same way. This removes the distinctions between poor and good paladins.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:27 am

Are you only looking for input on this particular alternative, or any proposed alternative? I think the debuff idea, while interesting, is more cumbersome than it needs to be. Healing others with WoG is almost a non-issue, as you're mostly just sniping heals from other healers at that point. The issue that needed to be addressed was primarily our self-healing ability.

The goal of the alternative should be to simply make it less effective to WoG yourself repeatedly in heavy tank damage situations. The cooldown idea accomplishes that, as does the debuff. But you could also do a number of other things for that result:
  • WoG only extends Holy Shield's duration by 3-5 seconds instead of a full 20-second refresh.
  • WoG only refreshes Holy Shield if used on another player.
  • WoG only incurs a cooldown when used on self (essentially an automatic EG proc when you cast WoG on another player).
  • WoG loses Vengeance AP scaling, but has 300% effectiveness under the effects of Divine Plea (via GbtL). Basically turns Divine Plea into a self-healing cooldown.
And so forth.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby culhag » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:22 am

theckhd wrote:WoG loses Vengeance AP scaling, but has 300% effectiveness under the effects of Divine Plea (via GbtL). Basically turns Divine Plea into a self-healing cooldown.

I'd prefer to keep Divine Plea for when I need mana.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Arincia » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:42 am

I think as far as prot thecks ideas are correct. Make it be a short term survival tool. Maybe extending your idea of having it not refreshing HS for if used to self heal (or used period). This would actually make us use inq or SoR to maintain HS then but if we need burst of emergency healing from it were not punished immediately as well.

Though this only address 1/2 the problem with the other half being ret. Zealotry+selfless healer (+EG+Divine Purpose)really causes quite a huge burst of on demand healing. One way to fix this burst healing could be to turn down Selfless healer from +50% and make zealotry so that it makes TV and INQ able to be used for free as if they had 3 HP when they use CS. With no HP for WoG from Zealotry there is no more on demand burst healing that way and selfless healer being toned down a lot would help with that as well. However between EG and Divine Purpose that is but loads of ways to proc extra healing for it for even more burst healing in pvp. EG is fine on its own and Divine Purpose is meant to be a dps boost so i can't think of a way that would work to lessen WOG burst from ret by those talents without severely hurting it in other ways.

TLDR: Prot is 1/2 the problem Ret is the other half. For prot just make it not put up HS this will naturally reduce WoG spamming on its own.For ret make adjusting Zealotry and Selfless healer reduces the on demand healing.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby PsiVen » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:17 am

I've never liked the ability to heal others with WoG, but it has become a point of flavor. The simplest fix I see is with WoG self-scaling. It needs to be taken off Vengeance or at least have its coefficient reduced from Vengeance AP, and overall amount of healing increased. There should be no extra-special proc that lets you WoG twice. That way, WoG becomes a reasonable choice to use liberally or occasionally as needed. But this doesn't fix Ret's problem, so I'll delve deeper...

I don't like the idea of a debuff that restricts healing other people with WoG, but a debuff that restrains the caster has merit as an alternative to a cooldown. Imagine the debuff is -25% per stack, stacking linearly to 50/75/100%. There could be a talented effect where ShoR/Inq would A) reward you with a small absorb bubble (~50% WoG amount) if you didn't have it or B) clear the debuff if you do. That way, you could alternate ShoR/WoG if you really wanted to do but it wouldn't be a net gain over using ShoR all the time.

Some example 5-finisher sequences:
Spell [with] %WoG healed each = total healed
WoG-WoG-ShoR-WoG-WoG with 100-75-0-100-75 = 350
WoG-WoG-WoG-ShoR-WoG with 100-75-50-0-100 = 325
WoG-ShoR-WoG-ShoR-WoG with 100-0-100-0-100 = 300
WoG-WoG-ShoR-ShoR-ShoR with 100-75-0-50-50 = 275
WoG-WoG-WoG-WoG-ShoR with 100-75-50-25-0 = 250
ShoR-ShoR-ShoR-ShoR-ShoR with 50-50-50-50-50 = 250

Clearly you'd want to ShoR for every third WoG to reset the stack, if pure healing was your only concern. But it would hardly be worth it, as on a repeating cycle you see:
WoG-WoG-ShoR-WoG-WoG-ShoR with 100-75-0-100-75-0 = 350
ShoR-ShoR-ShoR-ShoR-ShoR-ShoR with 50-50-50-50-50-50 = 300

Only a half-WoG improvement over using ShoR the whole time. It also means that using WoG once in a while does not save any mana, it only serves as a buffer for when you think you might die otherwise. This also works well with Ret PvPers, who were more reliant on frequent WoG than we were and stand to lose a lot from the cooldown change. The main problem with this solution is that it wholly embraces the idea that a finishing move reliant on Holy Power can be used in the split-second it's needed, which is a little silly. So, how to fix that? Tweak the numbers so that an occasional WoG is a big help.

The rules are now:
Casting WoG applies a debuff on you reducing your WoG healing by 25% per stack. Lasts 30sec, does not refresh duration with new stacks.
ShoR/Inq either removes the debuff or puts up a shield for 6% per Holy Power. It also applies one stack per HoPo towards a stacking buff, let's call that Indulgences.
Indulgences stack up to 30, and increase the healing of your next WoG by 5% per stack. If used on another player, you only get 2.5% per stack.

Let's try some examples, repeating rotations this time:
-ShoRx20-WoG... with 0-30x19-250... (avg 39)
-ShoRx10-WoG... with 0-30x9-250... (avg 47)
-ShoRx5-WoG... with 0-30x4-175... (avg 49)
-WoG-ShoR... with 115-0... (avg 58)
-WoG-WoG-ShoR... with 115-75-0... (avg 63)
-WoG-WoG-WoG-ShoR... with 115-75-50-0... (avg 60)

Now assuming we are healing others for whatever reason:
-ShoRx20-WoG... with 0-30x19-175... (avg 35)
-ShoRx10-WoG... with 0-30x9-175... (avg 40)
-ShoRx5-WoG... with 0-30x4-138... (avg 43)
-WoG-ShoR... with 108-0... (avg 54)
-WoG-WoG-ShoR... with 108-75-0... (avg 61)
-WoG-WoG-WoG-ShoR... with 108-75-50-0... (avg 58)

Further assume that we are healing others while not currently tanking:
-ShoRx20-WoG... with 0x20-175... (avg 8)
-ShoRx10-WoG... with 0x10-175... (avg 16)
-ShoRx5-WoG... with 0x5-138... (avg 23)

So prioritizing WoG is rewarded with increased healing, as long as you only use it for 2/3 of your finishers. Prioritizing ShoR is rewarded with the occasional WoG being more powerful and more likely to be useful for survival purposes rather than healer mana savings, and obviously also increases DPS. Result: Strong incentive for progression tanks to choose between average mana savings and gaining a more powerful survival cooldown. Note that the powerful 250% WoG is effectively about a 2-minute cooldown, and remember that the current model which people are referring to as overpowered is:

-WoGx10 at 6 GCD cost per + 3 EG WoG at 1 GCD cost = (avg 124)

Which means that this change is a severe nerf to WoG spam mode, but strongly incentivizes doing normal tank DPS. It might even reward hit rating enough to consider getting some.


Formal summary of my proposed changes:

Word of Glory
Added: Casting Word of Glory causes Fading Glory, reducing the healing of your next Word of Glory within 30 seconds by 25%. This effect stacks up to three times, and one stack is removed for each Holy Power you spend on other abilities.

Holy Specialization
Added: Your Word of Glory does not cause Fading Glory.

Shield of the Righteous
Added: In addition, if Fading Glory is not active you gain an absorption shield equal to (578-644 + 0.060 * AP) per charge of Holy Power for 6 seconds.

Eternal Glory (2/2)
Causes your Templar's Verdict, Shield of the Righteous, Inquisition and Light of Dawn spells to apply Indulgences for each Holy Power spent. Indulgences increase the healing of your next Word of Glory by 2.5% per stack, up to a maximum of 30 stacks.

In addition, your Holy Shock, Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous abilities cause Eternal Glory for one minute, granting Word of Glory a 30% chance not to consume Holy Power.

Guarded by the Light (2/2)
Increases your Word of Glory by 10% when used to heal yourself, allows your Word of Glory to grant Holy Shield and causes any overhealing to create a protective shield equal to the amount of overhealing that lasts for 6 sec.

In addition, increases the effect of Indulgences by 100% when used to heal yourself, but prevents your abilities from causing Eternal Glory.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Noradin » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:49 am

Please remember that WoG is the only thing prot paladins can use HP on prior to lvl 39.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby PsiVen » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:55 am

Noradin wrote:Please remember that WoG is the only thing prot paladins can use HP on prior to lvl 39.


Which only makes it more ridiculous to put a 20-second cooldown on it. I carefully worded my changes to Eternal Glory so that they would work for low-level paladins, but 1-39 balance is rather unimportant and can be tweaked in a million other ways.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:42 pm

I actually wouldn't be surprised if they rework Eternal Glory to reset the CD on WoG
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby DJSticky » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:18 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I actually wouldn't be surprised if they rework Eternal Glory to reset the CD on WoG



Without diving very deep into any of the ideas (I'm still to far into QQ mode to care, j/k) I really like this idea.

All joking aside, WoG can really break some encounters. Frost tank on Conclave comes to mind. On normal mode I was doing 40% of my healing recieved and on Heroic I was doing 25-30%. This is WoG spec with glyph and SoI glyph. That is totally ridiculous imo. I shouldn't be able to tank a mob, provide all my utility and do the healing of a full healer (or more) on normal and about 40% of a full healer on heroic. Not saying I didn't have tons of lolz doing it, but just looking at things objectively.

**Edit**
I'm not sure how much this change would TRUELY screw me up if it went in as it is now. My DPS getting geared out has pretty much made me start using WoG like the devs "want me to". Granted it is slightly more black and white, most bosses there are times when I will do straight SoTR and others straight WoG which this change would effect. It might be worth noting that although I know full well more then 20% threat lead is pointless, I like big numbers and some times can't stop until I push people below 40-50%, so playing "right" would be me alternating WoG SoTR so meh.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby masterpoobaa » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:39 pm

Make. Threat. Generation. Matter. In. Raids.

:)
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby yappo » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:35 pm

Simplest fix to WoG CD would be to count HoPo.

Let's assume that the 20 second CD is indeed fine, but implemented in a ham-handed way.

Make the CD into HoPo used X 6. Now we have a six second, a twelve second and an 18 second CD on WoG. The more powerful the heal we want to cast, the longer the CD. That way, at least, a one HoPo WoG isn't a total waste.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:56 am

masterpoobaa wrote:Make. Threat. Generation. Matter. In. Raids.

:)


You know, I wondered about this after I began noticing that I could stop hitting bosses in 5-mans during 'run like hell' phases and *still* have aggro, despite my ranged DPS being able to lay the smack down almost continuously. I am assuming in raids there are similar situations, and I wonder if some of the huge leads we can are 'on purpose'. the choice to change abilities for tanking classes (mainly PVP balances I think) rather than tweak the 'easily tunable' knob for tanks that the devs *purposely* put in tells me that either vengence is working exactly how they think it should (as strange as that seems) or they don't yet have enough data to fix it (though apparently they have enough to begin to modify specific class abilities).

so, TBH, I can see where this change came from ('abuse' in PVP, more than likely) and it doesn't really seem to change much for me, since I tend to follow a ShoTR(INQ)/WoG alternating rotation once I get things rolling. It will be annoying after long trash pulls (usually when I use excess HoPo on a quick heal) where I ended up popping a WoG to help the healer (or while soloing), and for those high-damage 'heal through it' phases of some bosses.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:07 pm

This change will also make Soloing MAGs difficult.
And that makes me a sad panda.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:31 am

masterpoobaa wrote:This change will also make Soloing MAGs difficult.
And that makes me a sad panda.

The reduction in gold from Mags will make it less desireable to solo anyway.
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Re: Alternative to the 20 second WoG

Postby Shoju » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:27 am

masterpoobaa wrote:Make. Threat. Generation. Matter. In. Raids.

:)



This. So much this. I ran most of the raid last night in my "threat" spec. I use this spec mainly for heroics, Argaloth, thigns where Healing isn't a big deal. I was at 20+ Expertise, and 3% hit, so I'm not "gearing" for threat. I reforged a little into expertise just to try and even out my HoPo generation a little.

The result? We all know the result. My threat was just stupidly high, never an issue after the second Shield of the Righteous. Sherck, My tank healer said that I was just fine to heal, and didn't have mana problems because of it.
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