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Logical Progression Path?

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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Donut » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:47 am

Hmm thanks for the input. I think most of us are 1-2 pieces away from full epic gear and I'll see how we can allocate our time. Another question though, will HM's require a good bit of raid stacking - because that really isn't too much of an option. We run:
Hunter Blood DK
Lock Prot Pali (me)
Mage Holy Pali
Spriest Disc priest
Rogue Resto Shammy

cat-bear druid sub and that's it.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Belloc » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:09 pm

I'm pretty sure that our standard raid is pretty much the same, except with a warrior tank instead of a DK ... so you should be perfectly fine!

Be prepared to wipe a lot, though. Heroics are seriously challenging. Best of luck!
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby PsiVen » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:57 am

Belloc wrote:
PsiVen wrote:We found Chimaeron rather painful, especially since we had to keep shuffling strategies. Given the required tank rotation to have every single Double Attack delivered with 0 stacks of Break, carefully rotating cooldowns to make sure the Feud tank didn't get gibbed, and perfectly timing the transition, it seems far more technical than the other bosses. We are all breathing a sigh of relief that Atramedes and Maloriak actually let us use a normal amount of tanks/healers and aren't much different from normal mode; we hope to kill one or both Sunday night.

For a 25-man, I expect Chimaeron is a much more clear-cut choice for the 2nd heroic to kill. For 10-man I'm not convinced that it's the 2nd easiest anymore, but we'll see if we actually kill those other two quickly.

We use our typical group for 10-man Chimaeron (2/3/5, of course). If we have our ret with us, he tanks during normal phases, otherwise we use our druid. Any DPS that can taunt can serve as a third tank without respeccing.

Double attacks are eaten by whoever doesn't have break stacks. If that's going to be a problem, there's always AD or GS... but it's never been a problem for us =/ YMMV I guess, but Chimaeron has always seemed cut and dry.


We don't have a regular ret/DK/war, so we have our moonkin respeccing feral tank (he's also the one that respecs resto for 4heal fights) while our DK tank does the DPS tanking duty. Our strategy involves rotating every possible cooldown. Feud tank gets GS-LoH-LoH-GS, and a turtle pet intervene during Double Attack. Shield wall CDs are down for the 2nd Feud per tank unless every phase is 90s, so I use bubble+sac in addition to raid sac / holy radiance during his second, and AD during my second. Tranquility is lined up ahead of time.

So while our first kill was painful, our second was pretty smooth and now it feels like we should only wipe if we get 4 short Feuds in a row. I guess that's the benefit to painstakingly organizing everything :)

We did kill Atramedes and Maloriak this week, and we definitely found them easier than Chimaeron, Atramedes being by far the easiest of the three. For anyone looking for their 2nd heroic kill, don't be fooled by the kill statistics. It's all about what you're good at on normal mode.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby mosa » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:39 am

Does anyone know where the teir upgrade pieces drop from 10 man Hard modes? The chest upgrade is from Halfus, but after that?
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Belloc » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:40 am

mosa wrote:Does anyone know where the teir upgrade pieces drop from 10 man Hard modes? The chest upgrade is from Halfus, but after that?

Legs: Maloriak
Gloves: Magmaw
Helm: Nefarian
Shoulders: Cho'gall
Chest: Halfus
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby sakkdaddy » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:58 am

I would really ignore travel time issues when planning heroic progression, because each new boss is going to take you a few hours at least to kill most likely. Luckily, aside from Conclave, you can just kill Halfus then clear BWD other than Nefarian. I recommend this progression:

1. Halfus
2. Atramedes
3. Chimaeron
4. Maloriak
5. Omnitron
6. Magmaw
7. Conclave
8. Valiona & Theralion
9. Twilight Ascendant Council
10. Cho'gall
11. Al'akir
12. Nefarian
13. Sinestra

2-4 can be done in any order really. Maloriak takes stronger AoE classes (3 tanks, 6 healers), Chimaeron (3.5 tanks, 7 healers) takes good healers and tanks mostly, and Atramedes (1 tank, 6 healers) is extremely easy if your players have good movement.

5-7 are also similar in difficulty imo, but are more demanding on cooldown rotations and individual mistakes are less previous bosses. We use 3 tanks, 1 frost dk, and 8 healers for Magmaw. 2 tanks, 7 healers for Omnitron. 3 tanks, 1 frost dk, 7 healers for Conclave.

I would take these roughly in the order listed, but switch things up a little based on your raid strengths and weaknesses.

We start on on Valiona & Theralion this week (3-day raiding guild) so I can't speak from personal experience about #8 onward.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Belloc » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:04 am

Note that for 10-man heroics, the progression path is different.

1-7: Halfus, Chimaeron/Maloriak/Atramedes, Conclave, Omnotron, Magmaw
8: Al'Akir
9: Ascendant Council
10: Apparently Nefarian
11: Valiona and Theralion, though who knows for sure. Apparently this fight is so RNG that it's best not to bother with it.
12: Cho'gall
13: Sinestra.

10-13 are placed in those positions because only one guild has actually killed Nef and V&T and they did so in that order. Cho'gall and Sinestra remain unkilled.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:30 am

We're checking out Nefarian Hc and Ascendant Council Hc, and Nefarian seems easier or at least comparable. Also Al'akir is supposedly the hardest 25 boss, comparable with Sinestra.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Creature » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:00 am

sakkdaddy wrote:I would really ignore travel time issues when planning heroic progression, because each new boss is going to take you a few hours at least to kill most likely. Luckily, aside from Conclave, you can just kill Halfus then clear BWD other than Nefarian. I recommend this progression:

1. Halfus
2. Atramedes
3. Chimaeron
4. Maloriak
5. Omnitron
6. Magmaw
7. Conclave
8. Valiona & Theralion
9. Twilight Ascendant Council
10. Cho'gall
11. Al'akir
12. Nefarian
13. Sinestra

2-4 can be done in any order really. Maloriak takes stronger AoE classes (3 tanks, 6 healers), Chimaeron (3.5 tanks, 7 healers) takes good healers and tanks mostly, and Atramedes (1 tank, 6 healers) is extremely easy if your players have good movement.

5-7 are also similar in difficulty imo, but are more demanding on cooldown rotations and individual mistakes are less previous bosses. We use 3 tanks, 1 frost dk, and 8 healers for Magmaw. 2 tanks, 7 healers for Omnitron. 3 tanks, 1 frost dk, 7 healers for Conclave.

I would take these roughly in the order listed, but switch things up a little based on your raid strengths and weaknesses.

We start on on Valiona & Theralion this week (3-day raiding guild) so I can't speak from personal experience about #8 onward.


You know, I hate to come in here and just be negative but somehow I don't think you can do Atramedes, Chimaeron or Maloriak before the Omnomnom or Magmaw.

That being said: even though we have only a handful of bosses down on regular ourselves, we found that the following kill order (so far) worked well for us noobs:

1) Conclave
2) Magmaw
3) Omnotron Defense
4) Halfus
5) Valiona and Theralion
6) Maloriak
7) Atramedes

The Conclave is not a hard fight but will require coordination skills between your three 'teams', so if you have issues with that coordination then you will not make it. Make your way to BWD after the fight.

Magmaw is really simple on regular. What we do is have EVERYONE stand in melee range and one 'offtank' stand at range for the parasites. All he needs is one person at range and he casts pillar on that. We have a DPS DK in blood presence kite them around for the entire fight. Go go Gadget Chillblains!

The Omnotron is again pretty simple. Just make sure you are aware of every single golem's abilities. All they have is two each, and your raid needs to learn to switch on time and keep in mind what both golems that are active can inflict on them. The trick in this fight is really to not hit a shielded golem and to be aware of which two are up at a time. Then, it is time to go to BoT.

Halfus, for us less skilled and geared people, can be a pain. Whatever combination of drakes is active can make it brutal or simple. I would recommend to plan your raid for the week ahead, by checking his schedule on a site like WoWpedia. We pick him on the easier weeks on purpose, for obvious reasons.

After that, the twin dragons Valiona and Theralion are simple. The hard part is to learn how to deal with their abilities and switching between them. Basically the same skills you needed for the Omnotron Defense, but now only with two bosses and only one is actively being tanked and DPS'able at a time.

Then I would say you should dive back into BWD. After killing the first two bosses you have openend three more bosses. I don't know if we simply do it wrong, or if we are just that bad, but Chimaeron does R rated things to us. Before and after we die. Both Maloriak and Atramedes are not that hard though, but the fights require a bit more tactics and skill then I am willing to write out here.

Good luck, happy raiding and good luck on the drops! (Our first 6(!) epics we only had 1 person need an item. The rest got DE'd.)

Edit: By the way, our team consists of:

2 pally tanks (Always)
3 healers (Randomly picked from a pool of: 3 shammies, 1 pally, 2 priests)
5 dps (Randomly picked from a pool of everything)

This is also why I call us noobs and scrubs. We have attendance issues so we never have a guarantee to even raid a week with one solid group. We have a group for a night and then the next night we may have 8/10 show up again or maybe 4/10. We never know. And that makes raiding pretty darn hard.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Belloc » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:18 am

Creature wrote:
You know, I hate to come in here and just be negative but somehow I don't think you can do Atramedes, Chimaeron or Maloriak before the Omnomnom or Magmaw.


Atramedes, Chimaeron and Maloriak are all far easier than Omnotron and Magmaw. You most certainly can and should go in there and learn those fights before Om/Mag... if you actually want to kill bosses, that is.

We're a 10-man guild, but the principle still applies. We killed Maloriak, Chimaeron, and Atramedes (in that order) before we even started attempting Omnotron. Granted, you can't leave Omnotron up while working on those fights, but that's not an issue for guilds that still need to learn the other 3 fights.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby baleogthefierce » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:27 am

Belloc wrote:
Creature wrote:
You know, I hate to come in here and just be negative but somehow I don't think you can do Atramedes, Chimaeron or Maloriak before the Omnomnom or Magmaw.


Atramedes, Chimaeron and Maloriak are all far easier than Omnotron and Magmaw. You most certainly can and should go in there and learn those fights before Om/Mag... if you actually want to kill bosses, that is.

We're a 10-man guild, but the principle still applies. We killed Maloriak, Chimaeron, and Atramedes (in that order) before we even started attempting Omnotron. Granted, you can't leave Omnotron up while working on those fights, but that's not an issue for guilds that still need to learn the other 3 fights.


I'm fairly certain Creature is talking about the normal progression path, while the post he quoted was talking about the heroic progression path.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Creature » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:40 am

baleogthefierce wrote:
Belloc wrote:
Creature wrote:
You know, I hate to come in here and just be negative but somehow I don't think you can do Atramedes, Chimaeron or Maloriak before the Omnomnom or Magmaw.


Atramedes, Chimaeron and Maloriak are all far easier than Omnotron and Magmaw. You most certainly can and should go in there and learn those fights before Om/Mag... if you actually want to kill bosses, that is.

We're a 10-man guild, but the principle still applies. We killed Maloriak, Chimaeron, and Atramedes (in that order) before we even started attempting Omnotron. Granted, you can't leave Omnotron up while working on those fights, but that's not an issue for guilds that still need to learn the other 3 fights.


I'm fairly certain Creature is talking about the normal progression path, while the post he quoted was talking about the heroic progression path.



I hate it when new people come in these boards and don't even learn to read. Freaking scrubs. It clearly states 'heroic progression' in the post he quoted.

L2Read nub. I say we ban this 'Creature' fella, simply for being so dumb.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby baleogthefierce » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:25 pm

Creature wrote:I hate it when new people come in these boards and don't even learn to read. Freaking scrubs. It clearly states 'heroic progression' in the post he quoted.

L2Read nub. I say we ban this 'Creature' fella, simply for being so dumb.


Good thing this isn't EJ. I hear they take away your birthday for a post like that.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby Shathus » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:29 pm

Perhaps he just meant you can't do those bosses before you kill Magmaw and Omnotron (due to the gate), forgetting that you can do those 2 on normal, then flip the switch to heroic for the others. It's not like ToC with it being all or nothing.
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Re: Logical Progression Path?

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:58 pm

Shathus wrote:Perhaps he just meant you can't do those bosses before you kill Magmaw and Omnotron (due to the gate), forgetting that you can do those 2 on normal, then flip the switch to heroic for the others. It's not like ToC with it being all or nothing.


(psst Shathus you missed the bit where Creature quoted Creature and bashed Creature for not reading)
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