Prot PVP @ 85

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby yappo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:47 am

econ21 wrote:
yappo wrote:Given that I grabbed (almost) 5% hit and 20 expertize out of routine...


Yeah, me too. I guess I was just spooked by this post:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... 20#p644056

It does raise the question of player avoidance in PvP: I meet L85 hit and exp caps, but it seems some classes have stuff that makes them a little more slippery to land a blow on.


If my target has 20 - 30% avoidance, then my target is walking around in PvE tank gear and is already dead before the fight started due to severe lack of resilience.

The 5% miss is voided by 5% hit. Thus the poster claims he's up against targets with 10/10 - 15/15% parry/dodge. The latter would be in 359 tank gear dumping mastery in favour of avoidance.

Let's have a look at my own prot-pally in PvP gear. He has an astounding 3.98% dodge and 9.90% parry, let's say 14% avoidance. The SoT glyph alone would shave 2.5% off each, and as gear gets better I'll have a hard time staying at 20 expertise or below from gear only.

However, he implicitly highlights that 20 expertise unbuffed might indeed be a tad low. Softcapping ought to be the biggest boost to our sustained dps even in PvP, so I think I'll aim for good old 26 :D
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:36 am

He's talking about fighting Rogues and Feral Druids.
Temporarily playing WoW again.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Magnusharkov » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:07 pm

I've been doing some fairly casual pvp as prot with an arms warrior and I've found it to be very fun but possibly not super competitive. I'm at around 2700 resilience and my warrior is at 3300. We play the minimum number of games each week and we're currently floating around the 1550-1600 rating area. What we find is that if I use most of my holy power on healing we can actually last quite a long time, we've even got some kills on 1healer/1dps teams by gradually ooming the healer. The fights we struggle the most with are against skilled double dps teams (normally including a mage) and highly geared melee/healer teams especially DK/druids.

I think our main challenge is just learning how to effectively "reverse kite" teams around pillars to make sure we fight on our own terms. It's still taking a bit of practice but it's a handy skill. It's also becoming pretty apparent that we actually have a pretty decent amount of burst if we can co-ordinate target swaps efficiently but it's quite hard actually keeping both of us on the same target for long periods of time due to how vulnerable we are to CC.

All in all though its a fun comp and definitely workable enough to get a few conquest points each week. At some point I would like to try prot/prot instead of arms to see how it goes, our burst would go down a lot but it would be fun to see how much staying power we could get.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:16 pm

Standing outside org watching people duel and commenting on a Blood DK (who usually plays Unholy) at how he's just tanking people down and saying I like his style! More random talks and we thought, hey let's try some 2's for lols! Blood DK and Prot Paladin...

We never expected that it could actually be as viable as it was...

We only played 6 games at around 1700 rating, but out of 6 games we won all of them. Double DPS is just silly, we chew them up and let our diseases and censure do the rest. Healer DPS is a bit interesting but we don't have any close calls because the DK can take care of himself pretty well, and I can take care of myself also. We're both rocking roughly 3k Resil and with the new glyph of Dark Succor, the DK healing on Death Strike is intense. The daze on AS is finally off the DR and can be used to keep people perma slowed. Between Chains, Justice (on druids and enhance shammys - try and kite me with your wolves up now!), AS, HoJ, Death Grip and a whole host of other annoying abilities we just keep someone perma locked in close quarters.

Had a pretty epic game against a Paladin Warrior team, but in the end the Paladin was just going oom and couldn't keep up with the stuns and silences. It's so funny when they try dpsing the DK and can't outdamage his Death Strike heals and Blood Shield, then they switch to me and I just go WoG mode and spam self heal with SoI and rotating cooldowns where required, as the Vengeance builds up I sit at like 60% life and it won't drop because of the scaling. The Blood Worms do so much healing over the long run it's just silly.

Gonna stick with this combo in 2's since the DK already has a 2k+ 3's team and doesn't really do 2's. I'd be interested to see how far we can actually take it, but overall it's rather silly being able to just wail on people without much they can do back to us. When we go for burst we pop wings and use Dancing Rune weapon to stack Necrotic Strikes and just smash stuff good. The best part about the combo is that we both have Vengeance, and as it builds... CRIKEY IT'S GOOD! Had a couple of 15k Crusader Strikes on Clothies!
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:02 am

Vort wrote:Blood Shield, then they switch to me and I just go WoG mode and spam self heal with SoI and rotating cooldowns where required, as the Vengeance builds up I sit at like 60% life and it won't drop because of the scaling.


Yep. This is just silly.

While we get our arses handed to us in 3v3 (two members at 1300 resil doesn't help) some 2v2 fights turn out fun. Fun in the sense that my partner goes down like a ton of bricks and I'm left with two melee dps. If they're the non-self-healing kind it's about a 50% chance I'll take both out in the end.

It should be noted that I'm stacking resilience with the fanaticism I'm stacking CTC while tanking, and now sit on over 3700 resil.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby DexterBelgium » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:59 am

Just for lulz I'm going to be going this way as well, together with a mate, in 2v2s.

Does anyone have any ideas on the usefulness of PotI as a talent (post-nerf) in this situation? I'm thinking it could be handy or quite pants, but it would entail me having to forego three of the talent points you would normally take in Ret (toss up between PoJ and Rule of Law). Any thoughts?
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby calixcloud » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:38 pm

Hi everyone, here in the Pally community.
I just wanted to put in my 2 cents as a Prot Paladin PVPer solely doing PVP a little under the last 2 months.
So far it's been extremely fun, random BG's, and 2's arena teams. Rated BG's have been more of a pain in the ass.
Sort of like the raiding level for PVP, where every player has to be 3000+ pvp with 2000+ arena team rating, and the best player in the class ever.
I'd rather just play and have fun, and try to deal with the bumps in the road.
Anyways, I do want to give my point of view on Prot PVPing, as most people in this discussion thread, don't know many prot pvpers in Cata 4.0.6,
or they used to Prot PVP in previous expansions, patches, and arena seasons.

A lot of my prot pally stats and customizations were based on Taugrimm's website. www.taugrim.com
He has many extensive videos, detailed posts and analysis, and a plethora of avid Pally PVPers (and teammates of Prot PVPers) who make quite a nice community.

I think the problem that a lot of people have with Prot Pally PVPers, is because they are considered a DPS spec, but they cannot keep up in terms of DPS with other pure DPS PVPers such as rogues, feral druids, DKs, etc. That may be true, but we bring plenty of other attributes to the table which I believe make Prot Paladin in arena 2's or 3's, a capable and viable option. Our DG (Divine Guardian), Hand of Freedom, Hand of Sacrifice, Hand of Protection, and 3 HOP WOGs, are great for mitigation and mana-free healing. In 2's, I make it a priority to stun and slow down whoever's targeting my teammate, and keep an eye on my teammate at all times, so i can instant wog him often, and when he needs it, Divine Plea (cancel to lose the 50% healing nerf), and then heal my teammate again. I always try to WOG as much as possible early in the match, cause often, the other team doesn't try to tunnel me since I am more difficult to kill.

Usually, if the enemy team attacks me, then we'll survive and be able to mow down one of their players. I'll just pop CDs back to back while I continue to WoG myself, using stuns, rebuke, etc. and my teammate and I should have no problem on them. So of course, the other team rarely goes after me. If this is a problem for you as a prot pally. Make your decision on who to attack with your teammate, and always charge in and attack first, with your teammate behind you. Players will have a tendency to go after you since you're the closer enemy to them.;

My teammates usually consist of a Unholy DK or a Fury Warrior, so it's nice to have a dps teammate who can burst very well. Anyways, the Prot Paladin must mitigate damage to his teammate or to himself, in order to survive a match. Once we get down to 2v1, we'll never lose with my heals and wogs. Anyways, Prot Paladins must understand their dps role is primary, but not exclusive. Sometimes healing your teammate with divine lights, or anything else will help. Our worst problem is when we face 2 casters like a lock/mage, or a combination of the sort. Frost Mage/HPally is damn near impossible, and pretty frustrating.

Anyways, if people understand that having a prot pally as a primary DPSer, but also as a damage mitigating and off-healing teammate, than i think people will be more open to playing with them. Yes it is difficult for Prot Pallys to gear up, and we definitely need to increase our DPS. However, I believe it is a fun and capable class to play as or with.

I only started pvp gearing once cata hit, and I'm currently in all 352's, and the conquest wep/shield.
I'm currently at 3400 Resil, about 8.5% crit, 5% hit.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/m ... e/advanced

As of now, I don't have any other Honor Gears to buy. I am currently waiting until next Tuesday, to get the 2-handed conquest weapon
I'm gonna test out the 2-hand protadin spec (macro 1-hand/shield swap right after an ability use, and can macro switch weapons in the middle of a GCD, so not to use it. Doable, but difficult and must need a lot of practice) If the 2-hand protadin spec is only viable in BG's and not Arena, then I'll probably refund it.
However, since I have no other items to get with honor points, I'm thinking of buying up the rest of my holy pvp set. I currently have the shoulder and legs (I did the double resil boost gearing early with low resil, but it hasn't made much sense lately since my STR is too low when I bump up to 3800 resil (from 3400).

Even though I haven't tried Holy Pally PVP yet, I think it makes a lot of sense if I want to further our 2's group. I can switch from protadin PVPer to HPally PVPer which could definitely mess up some teams that we face on the same day. Also, since I have nothing else to buy, I was thinking I might as well buy up the HPally set, since HPally's are so buff and probably the best single player healers right now. Tell me what you guys think about my Prot Pally, and also my ideas with possibly trying 2H Protadin, and also HPally dual speccing to Prot PVP and Holy PVP. Also, in what other ways can I upgrade my Prot PVP set? I feel like I've hit my gear ceiling, and other than waiting on conquest points, there's not much more for me to do.


Let's Pwn These Ally! Cheers!
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:26 am

calixcloud wrote:I'm gonna test out the 2-hand protadin spec (macro 1-hand/shield swap right after an ability use, and can macro switch weapons in the middle of a GCD, so not to use it. Doable, but difficult and must need a lot of practice)


I did some initial testing with 2H prot vs 1H prot, and it seemed to be pretty much a wash in terms of damage done. This was not with epic weapons, and was before they buffed CS. I felt substantially squishier -- half the armor -- and was unable to use Avenger's Shield tosses on healers when it procced. I missed that a lot. I suppose that if you're not being focused, the damage issue is less of one, but I really felt the loss of the shield toss for dealing with healers.

I believe we lose white damage when we change weapons, as it resets our swing. I could be wrong. Given how big the white hits are on a 2H, you could potentially lose a fair amount when swapping in a shield. That said, the CSes are *large* so it may not matter.

Give it a shot with 2H and tell us how it goes. I've wanted to try it, but don't have a 359 weapon. I imagine having two different CS macros and maybe two different AS macros would help -- so you can CS with the 2H twice, and then do CD/swap, ShoR/swap, CS, and use a CS/swap macro when you get a Grand Crusader proc. Tell us how it affects your burst damage -- if the damage is enough to do that, it might be viable even with an opposing healer. (It helps that your partner has a way to reduce healing or also interrupt healers. Mine has a harder time.)
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:04 pm

It is an interesting tought. As for the lack of abilities we can use wielding a 2hander, why not just macro a weaponswap with AS? As far as te blue-2hander goes: think its still a viable way to test it on some dummies and check recount. CS's are the biggest chunk of my total damage done in arena. I dont think it will improve our burst by alot but might improve our sustained damage if we dont get focused on. A swap to an action bar with 2h-switchmacroes for when you dont get focused on pretty much negates the lack of armor since you can just swap to sword and board in those situations.
Might be an interesting tought to start out with a 2h to fool them thinking youre ret so they focus on us instead of our 2v2 partners. I might actually try it with a blue weapon versus a dummy/BG to see how the switching will workout.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:09 pm

Also, what are your toughts on conquest points guys? I run around with 7 parts vicious, the rest is all honor gear. Somehow it feels a bit of a waste to upgrade pvp-blues to pvp-purples. I worked much harder for the blues! Especially the parts with haste/expertise which arent well itemized. If the 2handed thing seems viable I got something to aim for again but I might as well stack points... Not sure what for tho :lol:
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:21 pm

Sleetza wrote:Somehow it feels a bit of a waste to upgrade pvp-blues to pvp-purples.


You get roughly the same resilience-per-cost upgrading almost any piece of crafted gear to the Honor gear, and almost the same resilience-per-cost when upgrading to Conquest gear from either crafted or honor gear. (Trinkets are an exception, but that's because their ONLY itemization is resilience.) So, upgrade your weakest piece, every time, unless you're specifically prioritizing Conquest for set pieces, shields, or weapons.

I have a google docs sheet that calculates the resilience-per-cost for each slot that I can share if you like. You'll need to copy it and edit it with your own "current pieces"' resilience numbers.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:43 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Sleetza wrote:Somehow it feels a bit of a waste to upgrade pvp-blues to pvp-purples.


You get roughly the same resilience-per-cost upgrading almost any piece of crafted gear to the Honor gear, and almost the same resilience-per-cost when upgrading to Conquest gear from either crafted or honor gear. (Trinkets are an exception, but that's because their ONLY itemization is resilience.) So, upgrade your weakest piece, every time, unless you're specifically prioritizing Conquest for set pieces, shields, or weapons.

I have a google docs sheet that calculates the resilience-per-cost for each slot that I can share if you like. You'll need to copy it and edit it with your own "current pieces"' resilience numbers.


Define "weakest piece"? Since I am already fully pvp-geared its not as simple as "upgrade that green ilvl 318 before the blue ilvl 342". I would love to toy around with your spreadsheet! Altho my approach is a bit different I am curious now :P (I prioritize items which are well itemized. E.g. I rather spend my conquestpoints on an item with sta/str/resilience/crit then on an item with sta/str/resilience/haste because 60% of that chunk of haste is largely wasted itembudget because its such a weak stat for us. My gearingapproach: dps-output>survivability because we are already tough motherf*ckers to take down. In that sense I do not prefer resilience.)
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:01 am

Sleetza wrote:
Kelaan wrote:You get roughly the same resilience-per-cost upgrading almost any piece of crafted gear to the Honor gear, and almost the same resilience-per-cost when upgrading to Conquest gear from either crafted or honor gear.... upgrade your weakest piece, every time


Define "weakest piece"? Since I am already fully pvp-geared its not as simple as "upgrade that green ilvl 318 before the blue ilvl 342".


I'm currently not well geared. My opinion is that Resilience > Itemization. I'll wear a Conquest item with Resilience/haste even if it means I lose crit or expertise. The base stamina, strength, and resilience is budgeted based solely on item level, and I can reforge other stats around later if I want to. Moreover, the Conquest items generally tend to have the same itemization as the Honor items, just with bigger numbers. (I want to say they all do, but I may be unaware of an exception.)

Honor gear is always better than crafted gear. More armor, stamina, resilience, and sockets make it a clear upgrade for almost every slot. Conquest is a clear upgrade over Honor gear. For any given Honor->Conquest upgrade, the efficiency is roughly equal for most slots.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0AkXJLyJMUvskdGtUY3I0R3RtWDI0QzdKa0FkcUZUVmc&single=true&gid=5&output=html

{Edit: Here's the spreadsheet view if you want to copy it to your own google docs. }

There's my spreadsheet's read-only view. The top block of numbers was my first pass, but now I only care about the COST for the slot (out of those numbers). The lower block of numbers shows the resilience per honor (and resilience per conquest).

Going from PvE->Honor gear is ~0.095 resilience per honor.
Going from Crafted->Honor point gear is ~0.0109 resilience per honor.
Conclusion: Replace PvE gear before you replace stuff that already has resilience. (That doesn't apply to you, but others may find it handy. We all instinctively expect this, but it's nice to know it's true.)

Going from Honor->Conquest points is 0.0127 resilience/conquest in every slot except trinkets, which overbudget resilience. The other exceptions are shield and weapon, as there are no lower-tier equivalents with resilience. The shield is a massively efficient upgrade, resilience-wise. (And you can enchant it with disarm reduction!)
Conclusion: Every Honor->Conquest upgrade is equally efficient, so it doesn't matter what you upgrade first. Choose based on itemization, set bonuses, and so on. Weapons and Shield are expensive, too, but have very good resilience/cost since it's a direct upgrade from PvE. (That said, I'm keeping my Lava Spine: Same dps stats, but no resilience.)

You can see in the right two columns on the bottom section that I have five slots which need upgrading in any variety. My conquest points are probably going to go towards either trinket (since it's 20x more resilience/point) next, or the helm. It has more of either stamina or strength (I forget which) than the engineering one, so I think it's a better option, despite a resilience cogwheel. At the same time, my honor points will be spent on either a ring or trinket first.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby calixcloud » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:11 am

About the whole weapon swapping situation.

Isnt' the easiest macro to just have a 1-handed weapon/shield macro w/ crusader strike.
And another macro with 2-handed weapon w/ crusader strike?

I kept thinking that using different weapon swaps for each special actions was too complicated.

I've been testing this out. And it's pretty easy.
My mouse is a Logitech Mx1000. and my mouse wheel clicks left and right.
I made the left click of my mouse wheel the 1-hand/shield crusader strike macro.
I made the right click of my mouse wheel the 2-handed weapon crusader strike macro.

1-hand/shield macro
/equipslot 16 Vicious Gladiator's Hacker
/equipslot 17 Vicious Gladiator's Shield Wall
/cast Crusader Strike

2-handed weapon macro
/equipslot 16 Blade of the Fearless
/cast Crusader Strike


This way I don't have to use any other macros for AS or Shield of the Righteous.
Instead, anytime I'm ready to use my Avenger's Shield, i'll just 1-handed macro crusader strike, next and use it. If i have gained 2 HOPO from 2-handed weapon crusader strike. i'll use my 1-hand/shield weapon crusader strike for the 3rd HOPO. and then I'll use my Shield of the righteous.

But also, if you have high health, and you want to continue to just keep raising your vengeance, you can just continue using the 2-handed weapon crusader strike macro, and continue WOGing.

I'm not sure if it was a good idea for me to post this. Haha.. it just seems way simpler than anything else I read about 1-hand/shield and 2-hand weapon swapping. Especially since we have no other special attack move to use to gain HOPO as Prot/Ret Pallys (Holy can gain HOPO from Holy Shock as well as CS).
Let me know if my idea is too simple or just wrong. Thanks
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:15 pm

calixcloud wrote:Isnt' the easiest macro to just have a 1-handed weapon/shield macro w/ crusader strike.
And another macro with 2-handed weapon w/ crusader strike?

Somewhat. Here's my thinking.

CS with a 2H is >>> CS with a 1H, damage-wise, as it multiplies weapon damage. Thus, swapping BACK to a 2H before you cast a CS sounds good. Therefore, a macro which swaps the 2H back in after a ShoR or AS is good.

You want to use a ShoR or GC proc ASAP, which means your next ability use has to be a CS+Swap macro, or save them up and use them together.

1-hand/shield macro
/equipslot 16 Vicious Gladiator's Hacker
/equipslot 17 Vicious Gladiator's Shield Wall
/cast Crusader Strike

2-handed weapon macro
/equipslot 16 Blade of the Fearless
/cast Crusader Strike


Thanks for posting those! (Doesn't it work better if you put the /equip AFTRE the skill use? Or do I have that backwards?) The biggest benefit from it that I can think of is conceptual simplicity: You are only having to juggle choices on CS macros, rather than having to always remember "OK so I have a grand crusader proc and 3 HP, so I want to CS and then AS after, so don't use the macros that swap me back ...".

The biggest thing I can see is that it seems like I depend a LOT on Grand Crusader procs. I basically can send a shield at my focus target (a healer or caster) very frequently, and risking NOT having a shield sounds somewhat painful. It often feels like using AS to silence a damage dealer or interrupt a heal makes a noticeable difference (esp versus ret paladins ;)). Forgoing a shield seems to me that Definitely give it a shot, though -- if I had a 2H weapon that didn't suck, I'd be experimenting with it. Please do share the instances where you feel it works well, versus where it doesn't. I'm curious if the extra CS damage helps vs casters.
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