Preparing a raid group

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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby katraya » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:15 pm

Simple solution - clone me so I'd have time to raid with you! :lol:
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Shathus » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:16 pm

The #s from our first Magmaw kill since it was asked (pretty sure it was our first):

Demo Lock: 15.2k
boomkin: 15.2k
rogue: 14.4k
ret pally: 12.9k
Unholy DK: 9.9k
Surv Hunter:9.5k
pally tank: 7.7k (mostly self-healing)

healers:
HPriest: 8.5k
paladin: 7.7k
DPriest: 5.6k

Took 7:07 minutes and the disc priest and hunter died at some point in the last third of the fight.

A few weeks later, every is over 12k and we 2 healed it in 5:13.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby cerwillis » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:27 pm

Shathus,
I see that you had 3 melee dps for Magmaw. Do they help with the adds or stay on the boss? I was advised against more than 2.

Thanks for all the helpful ideas guys, It's going to be a major help to just say "look what these guys did on their first kills", so I appreciate the numbers as well.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Shathus » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:37 pm

cerwillis wrote:Shathus,
I see that you had 3 melee dps for Magmaw. Do they help with the adds or stay on the boss? I was advised against more than 2.

Thanks for all the helpful ideas guys, It's going to be a major help to just say "look what these guys did on their first kills", so I appreciate the numbers as well.


That's just what our roster happened to be at the time. The rogue has since taken a break and we just have a ret and DK melee now. Both then and now, we have the melee on the boss the entire time though. The extra ranged definitely helps out for the adds. Especially dropping down to 2 healers it's ridiculous how fast they die now.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Kelaan » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:23 pm

SurH: 12.8k
EnhS: 12.9k
ShadP: 12k
FrostM: 9.9k // You have hunters to control adds. Fire has Substantially more damage.
UnhDK: 7.4k (needs many gear upgrades) // Go farm more heroics, then.
SurH: 7.5k // Gear up, or L2P. Talk shop with the first SV hunter.

Mages should be Fire unless you need them as Frost for add control, my good mage friends tell me. Our hunters (SV or MM) own charts, when they aren't being destroyed by our resident Demonology warlock. ;)

If those are Halfus numbers, you have nearly no chance. If it's Magmaw, it may be that your ranged aren't stacking up for predictable pillars (so that traps/aoe can be placed in a stack). Tell your ranged people on Magmaw to focus ONLY on killing parasites, nuke them fast, and then pop cooldowns on the exposed head phases (since adds should be down). You have four ranged people which means adds should die FAST. (We normally have 3, and use 3 healers for all fights.)

There IS a gear hurdle for raiding. If they're not in mostly ilevel 346 gear, they won't have as many sockets, and that plus the ilevel difference makes going 333->346 a very substantial change. Your DK and one of the SV hunters may simply need to gear up. The only way we were able to succeed with people doing 9k dps was that some people were doing 12-14k. Under 8k is a recipe for failure for a lot of fights.

For Halfus, whether you let out one of two drakes at once can make a big difference, and the same tactic is not always the best one.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Mcduffie » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:33 pm

For some reason, we've had a rash of altoholism in our guild. Everybody's levling an alt.

So, the other day, I'm running a ToT with my buddy's DK. He had just turned 85, and this was his first heroic. Granted, we did have the 15% buff. But he pulled an easy 10k throughout the entire instance, and topped charts the entire time.

Our warlock was also doing 12-14k back when he had first started getting into heroics back closer to release. With only a 5% buff.

So, guys in 329-335 gear are pulling more dps than most of your "ready to raid" guys. They're doing something horribly wrong.

Overall though, I'd say to try not to get too upset or frustrated about it. If you enjoy your guild, enjoy where you are. Push them too hard, and they'll hate you.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby cerwillis » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:41 pm

The DK got a late start on Cata, I expect him to gear up and settle on a spec, and be up near the top rather quickly. The 2nd hunter (X) is a bit of a problem, and is probably the camel straw that brought me to the point that I posted. I would imagine that every casual guild has one, surer than not. X is family with 2 of our healers and signs/shows for almost every raid. X used to be my OT, until I was forced to make a change. X is notorious for saying "What was that? or What do I do? or I'm too close to shoot!" in vent. The hunter that is first on the list has reworked X's spec a bit since the raid numbers that I posted so hopefully there will be some improvement.

I run a casual guild. I know that casual doesn't have to mean bad, but sometimes it does. That is the tradeoff for playing with people who's company I enjoy, IMO. I won't deny that we have carried people, but I am seeing now that we wont be getting any bosses down with the numbers we have seen so far. I think I can deal with bad DDers better than bad healers :lol:
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:34 pm

Cadenza alt raid from Sunday night. I take my warlock, Synne, who is luckily not logged out in an Black Emberweave Gown. I only have a couple of epics, and the rep neck was acquired after that raid. I had several 333-ilvl pieces on there.

Magmaw10 breakdown, 3-healed by priest/shaman/pally:
Code: Select all
EleSham:         22048.1 (stupidly geared alt?)
FireMage:        19548.6 (alt)
Rogue:           18512.1 (alt)
Hunter:          17678.5 (main)
FeralCat:        16840.5 (main, but not part of our 25's)
Synne(destro):   14512.1 (alt)
BloodDK:          8759.9 (alt, tank)


The mage, hunter, shaman, and myself were the only four killing parasites. I was destro for Shadowfury stuns, because I'm bad and love affliction and never learned to play demo.

Halfus10 breakdown, 3-healed with pally/shaman/shaman
Code: Select all
Firemage:      43751.5 (alt)
Destrolock:    34518.5 (main)
Synne (aff):   32560.5 (alt)
Rogue:         31510.3 (alt)
FeralBear:     24090.2 (main, not part of our 25's, tank)
Hunter:        25432.0 (main)
BloodDK:       20182.0 (alt, tank)


And I was sloppy with my soul swap coverage, hence my relatively low DPS. I should have easily been able to break 35k if I were more comfortable with it. It's something I've been working on learning and improving (ex: do I SS on cooldown, or wait until BoA ticks the full way, etc?). I was able to boost my DPS on Nef phase 1 the next night by about 2-3k just by optimizing Soul Swap usage.

Note that this was the first BoT instance I'd set foot into. I'd done Magmaw/Tron/Mal/Atra once each the previous week. The DK and Fire mage have been doing this for ~3 weeks now, so he's a little more geared than most of the other alts. Also, every damn drop the last two weeks has been leather/mail/plate, so the rogue might have a bit more gear than the average entry level raider. The FeralCat and myself should be reasonably good barometers though.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Teranoid » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:48 pm

Nikachelle wrote:Well then, the two dps doing 7k are useless. You might as well get another dps over 12-13k and bring a third healer instead.


This. You cannot afford (especially in 10 man) to have being doing subpar dps especially when you don't somewhat out gear the content. The burn phases on bosses like Chimaeron will be almost impossible with people dragging their feet on dps. My guild is 9/12 and anything less than 11-12k is borderline unacceptable on most bosses. In reality even with full 346 gear and no epics or exalted rep items there is no way your dps should be pulling 7.8k tops especially on a fight with a gimmicky damage boost like Magmaw.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Kelaan » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:52 pm

theckhd wrote:Cadenza alt raid from Sunday night.

Holy shit. Your alts are better than 3/4 of my team's mains, I think. :-(
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:00 pm

Kelaan wrote:
theckhd wrote:Cadenza alt raid from Sunday night.

Holy shit. Your alts are better than 3/4 of my team's mains, I think. :-(

To be fair, most of the people on that list are exceptionally good players. A couple of them were involved (on mains) in our 10-man "kill bosses the first weekend after Cata hits" group. We had reasonable success.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Hokahey » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:17 am

theckhd wrote:
Kelaan wrote:
theckhd wrote:Cadenza alt raid from Sunday night.

Holy shit. Your alts are better than 3/4 of my team's mains, I think. :-(

To be fair, most of the people on that list are exceptionally good players. A couple of them were involved (on mains) in our 10-man "kill bosses the first weekend after Cata hits" group. We had reasonable success.


I'm very happy for you Theck. I know you're raiding situation throughout Wrath was one you were displeased with, so I'm glad you landed somewhere more appropriate to your skills.

Also, great thread. Lots of helpful advice here.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Rachmaninoff » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:57 pm

I've stopped main raiding. Trying to complete my master's, deal with my woman, and a 9 month old puppy I just don't have time to even play. So this weekend was a treat when I was able to do a 10-man alt run.

I would seriously check to see if everyone is doing the proper rotations, I went ret offspec for this fight and I was pulling a consistent 15k. my ret set has plenty of flaws and I still have a few greens. I only have one epic. I don't have most of my gear enchanted. Make sure everyone is at (or close to) i346. and if your used to carrying people, learn the classes and their rotations. this way you can make sure they know and are tightening up rotations because that can make big big difference.

One person I was playing with, she just hit 85. she was still pulling 11-13k on her hunter. I think she had a lot of help getting a couple of pieces of gear (GL sister) and gemming/specing properly.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby cerwillis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:27 pm

An update on the OP, I canceled Thursday because I didn't want to waste a night on wipes if people hadn't made an effort to improve. My understanding is that some of the sub-par players have made moves to increase their output, and in the case of the hunter, I saw noticeable improvement in a heroic that we ran.

Hopefully I will have higher numbers to report on Wednesday, I'll let you guys know how it works out.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby inthedrops » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:16 am

Figured I'd chime in here. I wouldn't spend too much time trying to compare DPS to other players you know nothing about. Although I do this myself when working on raid DPS issues, it's not something I generally make public or would choose to.

The first question is "Are you sure it's in your best interest to set specific DPS goals?". That's for you to decide, but there are going to be some negatives to that. For example, expect a few people to do the wrong thing in order to "pad" their numbers or stand in fire more.

Assuming you decide specific DPS goals need to be set, I would recommend looking inside your realm and compare to similar guilds with similar progression. The kinds of excuses you're going to hear from your DPS will be surprisingly and eye opening. Many are bad excuses, some will show that your strats need improvement, etc.

However, people will put more value into the numbers if you compare them to their peers, which is other people on the same server with the same progression. If you try to compare them to any unfamiliar guild or player then they will almost certainly not take it well at all and you'll be wasting your breath.

I've been real wordy here but I've gone through these exercises and I have a decent sense of what works and what doesn't.

Some other suggestions (besides looking at same realm guilds for comparison) are to set smaller goals and provide consistent feedback. In a 10 man guild, this is probably easier to do but in a 25 man it takes too much time so not as feasable. Basically, review combat logs, find an area for a player to improve, and just give them one thing to work on at a time.

There's a very good chance that raid awareness will get even worse as soon as people recognize that poor DPS might get them sat. Be prepared for this.

Good luck!
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