Preparing a raid group

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Preparing a raid group

Postby cerwillis » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:10 am

This subject overlaps a few boards, so please move it if needed.

I have a casual 10 man raid group that met with some success in ICC. (11/12 normal, got Arthas after 4.0). We are getting to the point that we are attempting the new raids, with somewhat less success.

So far we have spent 2 nights on Magmaw (~36% on the best attempt), and 2 nights on Halfus (maybe one drake down before the raid all dies to fire). I know this isn't Naxx, and wipes are going to be a part of the fun, but I'm starting to get frustrated.

I think that our strategies are fine, and our tanks and healers are for the most part our best players, so I am going to chock it up to DPS underperforming in all the various ways possible, (low dps, bad interrupting and standing in fire). I can and will post some logs if requested, but I am more in search of some numbers that I can set as goals for DPS to hit in order to convince me that they are taking their role a bit more seriously.

Personally, I shot for around 8-10k dps on a dummy when I was determining if my rogue and SP were ready for heroics. I realize that this number may vary quite a bit for certain classes, so I'm just wondering what a good baseline would be to set.

I appreciate any help in advance.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:20 am

10k bare minimum dps would be expected for raids. Most people in my raid (and we're only 5/12 right now) are doing between 12-15k. How much are you dps doing now?

What are people dying to? If they're dying from unavoidable fire, that's a healer issue.

One thing to point out, and you've indicated you know this isn't Naxx, but you're saying your group didn't get Lich King down till after 4.0 when you had both the 30% buff AND the extra dodge since radiance was removed. To me that kind of indicates the group isn't very advanced and/or is used to relying on crutches.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Shathus » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:29 am

I would agree w/ Nika that 10k is a good number to shoot for to start raids. Other factors being group make-up (melee heavy, lack of buffs/debuff, etc).

Have you all done Baradin Hold? That's generally a good measuring stick on which to judge the group. I think our first kill we finished with about 4 seconds on the enrage.

Some fights will have certain dps higher than others. Our warlock can put up some crazy spikes on anything with adds (Magmaw, Maloriak, Halfus w/whelps) so things like that can help, even if they aren't above 10k single target (but close).
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Flex » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:33 am

Baradin Hold is super funky for DPS comparison. Guild DPS range from 20K to 14K on that boss, with the 20K being a healer in his Ret gear. For the other raid bosses looking at about a 2K DPS drop just from fight design.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:36 am

Also, I did a bit of digging and got your armory (your sig link is busted btw) and while I don't want to point fingers, I will point out that you're missing an enchant and three engineering tinkers. If everyone in the raid is like that (or missing gems, or a few enchants), it really does add up. One enchant might not be a big deal, but if everyone is missing one enchant, or two each, or three, etc. It starts to add up (or not, as this case may be.)
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby cerwillis » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:41 am

Unfortunately, we got WG every time we wanted it in wrath, so TB was balanced on our server to be the opposite in cata. I would love to run it, but we haven't set foot in there yet for that reason.

As far as the numbers that I'm getting so far, the last time we were in BRD, the overall on Magmaw was:

SurH: 12.8k
EnhS: 12.9k
ShadP: 12k
FrostM: 9.9k
UnhDK: 7.4k (needs many gear upgrades)
SurH: 7.5k

And healing numbers were:

Pal: 8.8k
DiscP: 7k
Druid: 7k

Again, I know that we have a lot of work to do, but I am looking for a way to improve our chances in any way that we can, and right now I need them to know what my expectations are.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby cerwillis » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:45 am

Nikachelle wrote:Also, I did a bit of digging and got your armory (your sig link is busted btw) and while I don't want to point fingers, I will point out that you're missing an enchant and three engineering tinkers. If everyone in the raid is like that (or missing gems, or a few enchants), it really does add up. One enchant might not be a big deal, but if everyone is missing one enchant, or two each, or three, etc. It starts to add up (or not, as this case may be.)

Nika,
While I appreciate your attention to detail, the OP question that I have is more about what expectations to present to my raid in regards to dps. If I want a critique of my gear, I'll post in basic training.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Shathus » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:48 am

Flex wrote:Baradin Hold is super funky for DPS comparison. Guild DPS range from 20K to 14K on that boss, with the 20K being a healer in his Ret gear. For the other raid bosses looking at about a 2K DPS drop just from fight design.


Maybe, but if they can't pull 10k on THAT fight, what chance do they have on a more complicated one?
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Flex » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:52 am

Those DPS numbers are subpar

Here's how we stacked up the last two kills

EleS: 16.3
Fury: 16.4
SV1: 14.4
Fire Mage: 12.8
SV2: 13.5

Ele: 17.9
Combat: 17.1
SV2: 16.5
Fury 15.5
SV1: 14.4
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Aerron » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:52 am

It might also come down to Strat. You mention Magmaw and Halfus. How are you handling adds? Are you tank swapping Mag, or is your OT going dps for that fight?

Halfus can vary from week to week, don't beat yourself up too bad about that. Some weeks we walk in and one shot him, other weeks (like this one) the combo is kinda tricky and we have to make adjustments over a few attempts to get it.

I would second what Nikachelle is saying too; don't neglect gems, tinkers, enchants and further, pay attention to glyphs too. The small things really add up.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:53 am

cerwillis wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Also, I did a bit of digging and got your armory (your sig link is busted btw) and while I don't want to point fingers, I will point out that you're missing an enchant and three engineering tinkers. If everyone in the raid is like that (or missing gems, or a few enchants), it really does add up. One enchant might not be a big deal, but if everyone is missing one enchant, or two each, or three, etc. It starts to add up (or not, as this case may be.)

Nika,
While I appreciate your attention to detail, the OP question that I have is more about what expectations to present to my raid in regards to dps. If I want a critique of my gear, I'll post in basic training.

Yeah, which is why I was hesitant about saying anything. But if your dps is looking to improve, it makes me wonder if everyone handles their gear the same way. If you expect them to be at the top of their dps (which would require full gems and enchants, then they in turn must expect the same from you. Leading by example is generally the best way to get people to improve.

Also, you use 6 dps, I only use 5. So you should definitely be clearing dps requirements. However the lower end ones as causing the fight to go on too long which is probably stressing your healers.

But it seems I've offended you, so I'll refrain from anything further. Apologies.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Aerron » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:55 am

Flex wrote:Those DPS numbers are subpar

Here's how we stacked up the last two kills

EleS: 16.3
Fury: 16.4
SV1: 14.4
Fire Mage: 12.8
SV2: 13.5

Ele: 17.9
Combat: 17.1
SV2: 16.5
Fury 15.5
SV1: 14.4


those are your last two kills; but what about numbers from your first two kills? OP is just starting raiding, numbers from a successful beginning raid group would be more relevant.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby cerwillis » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:00 pm

Just to clarify, I believe that I know my raiders well enough to say that no amount of enchants and gear is going to improve their dps if they don't fix their specs and rotations. Most of my people are fanatical about gearing, potting, gemming and enchanting, often taking advantage of crafting, badges and other "welfare epicz", but they don't spend 5 minutes on a dummy to tweak their cycles. When I still don't see the results that I need when they are near the ceiling of their gearing pre raid, It is clear to me that adjustments need to be made to other variables. This is why I am asking what numbers to ask for. This will also give me a reason to sit people out other than "she died a lot last week", if they aren't improving.

Nika, I wasn't offended, just frustrated that I may not be phrasing my questions right. And you are right about my gear, but I'm the worst for that out of my raid. When tank deaths are killing us, I will blame myself for sure, and then go do therazane rep O.O
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Flex » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:01 pm

Aerron wrote:
Flex wrote:Those DPS numbers are subpar

Here's how we stacked up the last two kills

EleS: 16.3
Fury: 16.4
SV1: 14.4
Fire Mage: 12.8
SV2: 13.5

Ele: 17.9
Combat: 17.1
SV2: 16.5
Fury 15.5
SV1: 14.4


those are your last two kills; but what about numbers from your first two kills? OP is just starting raiding, numbers from a successful beginning raid group would be more relevant.


Those are our second and third kills of the boss, best I can give before are from the first night of wipes, didn't get the kill recorded because I am dumb, 15K top end, 11K bottom end.
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Re: Preparing a raid group

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:04 pm

Well then, the two dps doing 7k are useless. You might as well get another dps over 12-13k and bring a third healer instead.
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