4.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:37 am

theckhd wrote:These aren't the type of players who come to this forum to read a Talent guide aimed at entry-level paladins (instead, they're the type that read over the guide and then post nitpicks for the guide author to address :P).


I see your point, but maybe "balanced spec for under-geared beginners" will make a better description, don't you think? :lol:

Regarding the nitpicking, remember that you can always nitpick my materials when I decide to write my first guide for the site...

FORESHADOWING? ;)
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:34 am

I finally ditched Hallowed Ground (for Grand Crusader). I had been reluctant as consecration is such an iconic ability for us, and the 80% mana reduction seems massive. However, it is working very well. I often switch to seal of insight, so I can still use consecration without catastrophic effects on my mana - even in PvP. And Grand Crusader is great for 5-mans - especially to help interrupting bosses (although rebuke from 4.06 will make that irrelevant).

I am now thinking of switching glyph of consecration to glyph of lay on hands. For 5-mans, lay on hands is a massive boost to survivability (e.g. when healer is down or you've stood in the fire) and the pace of heroics has slowed such at that a 7 min CD means it would be available for every boss fight and even nasty trash. By contrast, I would not miss consecration. I am very happy with my other two majors - holy wrath and dazing shield.

With kings and might increasing in mana cost, I am not sure I will switch my minors back to them. But right now, I seal switch a lot.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:14 pm

Am I right in thinking that, if you had to pick one, Glyph of Word of Glory is better than Glyph of Seal of Insight? It boosts the healing of the relevant ability by 10% rather than 5%. And WoG provides a burst of healing that may be better for survival than the trickle of healing from SoI. With neither glyph, my recount for a heroic reports WoG provided slightly less my healing than SoI (37% as opposed to 43%). I was not exclusively heal tanking - I did 53 WoGs and 78 ShoRs, 457 counts of SoI.

I am thinking of ditching Glyph of Seal of Truth as I seem to use SoI more and more.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:04 pm

I'm currently using both SoI and WoG glyphs for most fights. I'd say the WoG glyph is generally going to be more powerful simply because it's not negated by overheal thanks to GbtL. But that's just a guess based on estimated SoI healing.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Extermi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:12 am

My impression (also from whacking a target dummy) was that the SOL glyph does not affect the healing from the seal itself, only from WoG and HR. This would reduce it benefit quite a bit, but it might still be the best choice in the current survival-heavy raid situations.

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:39 am

I highly doubt that the glyph doesn't affect SoI. Not that it's impossible, but you'd need a pretty large data set to convincingly show a statistically significant 5% difference. Certainly not something you can estimate just from whacking a dummy.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Sansin » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:54 am

First, I find the information on this site extremely useful. I am new to here and as a pally tank so I may be in the wrong section, please forgive me. I looked up your toon in armory and noticed that your hit was at 1.6, which seems very low to me. Is hit not important anymore?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Epimer » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:28 pm

Threat is trivialised by Vengeance stacks, and taunts can no longer miss. So hit is unimportant right now, yes.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Extermi » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:22 am

theckhd wrote:I highly doubt that the glyph doesn't affect SoI. Not that it's impossible, but you'd need a pretty large data set to convincingly show a statistically significant 5% difference. Certainly not something you can estimate just from whacking a dummy.


The numbers were all the same - no variation. I will re-run this to exclude any mistakes on my part.

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:17 am

Extermi wrote:
theckhd wrote:I highly doubt that the glyph doesn't affect SoI. Not that it's impossible, but you'd need a pretty large data set to convincingly show a statistically significant 5% difference. Certainly not something you can estimate just from whacking a dummy.


The numbers were all the same - no variation. I will re-run this to exclude any mistakes on my part.

Extermi


Oh, there's no variation on SoI procs? If that's the case, then even a small sample would be convincing. If you can upload a log, that would be great. In fact, I'd love to see some testing of SoI in a variety of different situations (with/without Divinity, with/without Glyph) just to see how they interact.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby tullock » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:43 pm

Ive read in several places that taunt cannot miss since cata came out, and so far i cant recall having seen hand of reckoning miss, but righteous defense absolutely can miss, i saw it happen and screen shotted it the other day because i had previously assumed it would fall under the taunts cant miss thing.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Extermi » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:49 am

theckhd wrote:Oh, there's no variation on SoI procs? If that's the case, then even a small sample would be convincing. If you can upload a log, that would be great. In fact, I'd love to see some testing of SoI in a variety of different situations (with/without Divinity, with/without Glyph) just to see how they interact.


I paid a quick visit to my friend the target dummy this morning. My results concerning SoL heal were:

- The healing number is constant, plus/minus 1
- Healing is NOT affected by the SoI glyph
- Healing IS affected by the divinity talent
- Healing is affected by AP: BoM increases it, BoK to a lesser extend
- That goes in-line with my observation that Vengeance increases the self healing

I am sorry that I did not have the time to capture a combatlog to allow further analysis of the coefficients, but what I take home is that the SoI glyph is a weaker choice than the WoG glyph (5% WoG and Holy Radiance vs 10% WoG increase).

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:29 am

I ran some tests yesterday that seem to agree with your results. Once I finish analyzing that data, I'll update the guide appropriately.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:44 am

Hey Theck, I just thought of something that may be worth including in your guide. On the Chimeron fight, the Holy/Prot Last Word spec seems very solid and useful in theory. Might want to include that for one additional reason to spec that other than "reactive" WoGing.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:41 am

It depends on how you execute the fight, I think. Certainly Last Word will have a larger effect on that fight than on others. However, the overheal bubble is pretty significant for the off-tank, who's being topped off between Double Attacks. So Rule of Law would have a slight advantage for that role. We alternate Double tanks, so each tank ends up filling both roles about half the time.

I've added a mention of that fight in particular in the "WoG build" section for good measure, though.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby kristoferpally » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:27 am

Does it look like there will be any changes to the 'standard' raiding build with 4.0.6? For one it seems like seals will be more of our damage and with us getting rebuke GC can be dropped for seals of the pure.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:33 am

kristoferpally wrote:Does it look like there will be any changes to the 'standard' raiding build with 4.0.6? For one it seems like seals will be more of our damage and with us getting rebuke GC can be dropped for seals of the pure.


Probably nothing significant. I haven't finished the simulations yet, but I think at best it will give us a little more flexibility. SotP doesn't affect Seal of Inisght, which makes it irrelevant for a lot of progression raiding.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 pm

theckhd wrote:Probably nothing significant.

Patch 4.0.6 Official Notes wrote:Crusader Strike, Holy Shock, and Hammer of the Righteous no longer incorrectly grant Holy Power from a missed attack.


You spoke too soon, Theck. :cry:
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:32 pm

Gaxby wrote:
theckhd wrote:Probably nothing significant.

Patch 4.0.6 Official Notes wrote:Crusader Strike, Holy Shock, and Hammer of the Righteous no longer incorrectly grant Holy Power from a missed attack.


You spoke too soon, Theck. :cry:


Still doesn't change anything with regards to talents. It's not that significant a threat nerf, it's just more annoying to model.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:07 am

The chance to miss, in the absolute worst case of 0 exp and 0% hit, is still only 28.5%. To lose Holy Shield, you would have to miss 6 Crusader Strikes in a row, which has a probability of 0.285^6=5.4e-4, or 0.054%.

Can it happen? Sure, anything's possible. Is it going to happen very often? No.

You have about a 5% chance of missing 4 out of 6 (binopdf(4,6,0.285)), which would prevent you from using a full 3-point SotR or WoG. You'd still be able to refresh Holy Shield, but at a cost. A 1- or 2-point WoG would probably be the best way to handle that situation. And EG procs may mitigate some of that.

And again, this is worst-case. Raise that to 2% hit and 10 expertise, and it drops the chance of missing 4/6 to 2% and 6/6 to 0.01%.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:14 am

theckhd wrote:The chance to miss, in the absolute worst case of 0 exp and 0% hit, is still only 28.5%. To lose Holy Shield, you would have to miss 6 Crusader Strikes in a row, which has a probability of 0.285^6=5.4e-4, or 0.054%.

Can it happen? Sure, anything's possible. Is it going to happen very often? No.

You have about a 5% chance of missing 4 out of 6 (binopdf(4,6,0.285)), which would prevent you from using a full 3-point SotR or WoG. You'd still be able to refresh Holy Shield, but at a cost. A 1- or 2-point WoG would probably be the best way to handle that situation. And EG procs may mitigate some of that.

And again, this is worst-case. Raise that to 2% hit and 10 expertise, and it drops the chance of missing 4/6 to 2% and 6/6 to 0.01%.


I'm starting to realize this change only strengthens WoG/Survival Builds and even further discourages Threat builds. Word of Glory can be used at 1 or 2 points (and possibly grant an EG proc) while SotR used at anything but 3 Holy Powers is a DPS loss. GC is even more mandatory now for filling in empty GCDs because Consecration without Hallow Ground can't be used half the time if you're at 50% mana. Chance to not get HoPo while struggling with mana to use CS because of a misused Consecreation? Yeah, we don't want any of that.

Perhaps WoG2 (Word of Glory with 2 HoPo) and WoG1 (with 1) should be added to the priority system of HoW>SotR>CS>J>AS>Cons(if you have the mana)>HW?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:25 am

I did notice that mana was a little tighter. Casting fewer SotR (free) and more fillers (costly, especially HW and Cons) tended to run me low on mana. It's also possible that I just wasn't very careful about prioritizing Judgement though. That's one reason I think favoring J>AS will still be preferable to AS>J.

As far as talents go, your impressions seem to mirror my observations. Grand Crusader is a more important talent, because there are more chances to use the procs. Once I finish the sims, I expect it to see a noticeable DPS boost compared to 4.0.3a.

Hallowed Ground is now a little more interesting, because mana usage has increased slightly. While still not strictly necessary, this talent is now a slightly bigger Quality-of-Life improvement. I probably still won't take it, but it's certainly more appealing. I may go back to using the Ascetic Crusader glyph if mana still feels constraining.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:13 am

Does the AS glyph change the priority in the rotation?

Is it better to glyph consecrate to increase its damage, or unglyph it to increase the chances to fill gaps?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:46 am

Awyndel wrote:Does the AS glyph change the priority in the rotation?

Not especially. I have it glyphed in the rotation simulations, and it's still better to use J>AS. Doubly so given the tighter mana limitations we're working under now. Unglyphing it will make AS weaker, but it'll still be higher priority than Cons because of the shorter cooldown, better mana efficiency, and Grand Crusader procs.

Awyndel wrote:Is it better to glyph consecrate to increase its damage, or unglyph it to increase the chances to fill gaps?

Probably irrelevant. While we have more gaps, there's still not that many of them. I have trouble believing that reducing the cooldown by 6 seconds will get you more than 20% extra uptime, which is what it would take to match the glyph. And from a pure mana-efficiency standpoint, casting fewer larger Consecrations is going to be more efficient than many smaller ones.

My impression from raiding last night is that the limiting factor in Consecration usage isn't available GCDs, its mana. I'll have an empty GCD in which to use it every 15-20 seconds or so, but I won't always have the mana to cast it. So I'm inclined to say that mana-efficiency is the slightly more important issue.

In the end, Cons vs. no Cons at all is only around 200 DPS, so we're talking about variations of 20% of that value, or 40 DPS. I can try to sim that out, but it's right around the noise floor for these simulations, which means it'll be hard to get anything definitive out of it. Given the small magnitude of the difference, it's not a particularly high priority.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:16 am

I did some tests on the major glyph Ascetic Crusader.

With Seal of Truth (glyphed), Blessing of Might and without the Ascetic Crusader glyph, a rotation of CS-X with SotR, Judgement, Avenger Shield (with Grand Crusader) and Holy Wrath with a priority system on J>AS>HW will eventually go out of mana against a Training Dummy. Without Sanctuary, this rotation is not sustainable and even more so if you add in Consecration without Hallowed Ground.

After I glyphed Ascetic Crusader and repeated the same test, I was able to sustain this rotation without going out of mana with my mana pool never dropping below 50% so long as I prioritized J>AS>HW in the X slot when I don't have 3 Holy Powers for SotR. Glyphing Ascetic Crusader seems to have a noticeable impact against single targets where they are less Sanctuary procs when it comes to mana management. Factoring Sanctuary in a real boss fight scenario, surely you can squeeze in a Consecration once in a while if your mana pool is in a comfortable spot.
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