lvl 85 tank comparison?

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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:39 am

Tantrim wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Edit: I guess for that matter DnD is a slightly better version of Consecrate, so if you consider DnD "snap aggro" then Cons should probably fall into that as well.

I think the DnD tool tip still says does a large amount of threat.. consecrate doesnt as i recall (though to be honest i dont really read tooltips all that much)

That might make a difference for at the very least the potential quality of the snap threat if my recollections are correct. Unless that is that consecrate really does that much more damage which i strongly doubt.. as in a pala tank with consecrate only ticking versus a death knight dps with death and decay only leaves the death knight pulling aggro is my guess

With Cons being holy damage, and RF active (you do have RF active on your pally tank... right?) I'd imagine the threat is probably comparable to DnD with Blood Presence. Now, that's not saying the damage is comparable (cause it probably isn't) but I would think threat should be.
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Worldie » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:03 am

D&D has bonus threat component, Consecration doesnt. However talented Consecration threat is quite amusing (crits for 2k in raids :o )

I find funny that while on my Pala, War and DK the skill priority is quite obvious, I still haven't figured out the correct threat rotation on my bear. I literally tank by pressing buttons randomly, which works for pugs but not so much for 15k dps people :X
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:21 am

Worldie wrote:D&D has bonus threat component, Consecration doesnt. However talented Consecration threat is quite amusing (crits for 2k in raids :o )

I find funny that while on my Pala, War and DK the skill priority is quite obvious, I still haven't figured out the correct threat rotation on my bear. I literally tank by pressing buttons randomly, which works for pugs but not so much for 15k dps people :X

I'll admit, I know very little about bears... but Mangle > Bleeds > other stuff?
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Tantrim » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:37 am

Skye1013 wrote:
Tantrim wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Edit: I guess for that matter DnD is a slightly better version of Consecrate, so if you consider DnD "snap aggro" then Cons should probably fall into that as well.

I think the DnD tool tip still says does a large amount of threat.. consecrate doesnt as i recall (though to be honest i dont really read tooltips all that much)

That might make a difference for at the very least the potential quality of the snap threat if my recollections are correct. Unless that is that consecrate really does that much more damage which i strongly doubt.. as in a pala tank with consecrate only ticking versus a death knight dps with death and decay only leaves the death knight pulling aggro is my guess

With Cons being holy damage, and RF active (you do have RF active on your pally tank... right?) I'd imagine the threat is probably comparable to DnD with Blood Presence. Now, that's not saying the damage is comparable (cause it probably isn't) but I would think threat should be.


I am guessing.. its not like i have much cause to go consecrating mobs only to hold them. Maybe a situation exists where it would make sense but.. i have yet to see it. And if such a situation exists i would presume death knights in the vicinity wouldnt be using death and decay (though at the same time the mobs would probably be so weak that noone would care)

Though.. why would consecration being holy or not matter? resist purposes? i dont think righteous fury cares any more
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:40 am

Hm... you're probably right on RF... I just tend to put it up after death/spec swap and forget about it :D
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby bldavis » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:13 pm

Skye1013 wrote:
Worldie wrote:D&D has bonus threat component, Consecration doesnt. However talented Consecration threat is quite amusing (crits for 2k in raids :o )

I find funny that while on my Pala, War and DK the skill priority is quite obvious, I still haven't figured out the correct threat rotation on my bear. I literally tank by pressing buttons randomly, which works for pugs but not so much for 15k dps people :X

I'll admit, I know very little about bears... but Mangle > Bleeds > other stuff?

YAY! i can answer something!

make sure you keep demo roar and FFF up
Mangle>Laceratex3>Pulv buff(on you, lasts longer then cd if specced)>maul if over ~75 rage
burst is berserk-mangle spam, maul when over 75 rage

for aoe Thrash and swipe both have 6sec cds, so use one, use another ability (maul if high rage, tab-mangle if lower) and then the other
normally i do thrash-maul-swipe-mangle(tab)-thrash-xxx-swipe-xxxx-trash ...etc until you are down to 2-3 and switch to single target and just tab target

sidenote: maul glyph is mandatory, if you dont want to use it, thats fine...go reroll boomkin :twisted:
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Arcand » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:02 pm

bldavis wrote:make sure you keep demo roar and FFF up
Mangle>Laceratex3>Pulv buff(on you, lasts longer then cd if specced)>maul if over ~75 rage
burst is berserk-mangle spam, maul when over 75 rage


After the first bleed-Pulverize cycle...do I always Pulverize the
moment I have 3 Lacerates up, even if the Pulverize buff has time
left?

I'm surprised there isn't some (Mangle/Maul until Pulv is about to expire)
clause in there, although it wouldn't be the first time a potentially
complex rotation was short-circuited by the way things are tuned. Weird
that even with a bleed-boosting debuff, the only reason we care about
our bleeds is as fuel for Pulverize. (If that is in fact the case.)
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby bldavis » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:16 pm

most of the time, i will pulv right before the buff wears off, and keep lacx3 up as much as possible
other than that, i will mangle, maul at high rage, and do debuff management (ie make sure demo roar is still up, FFF)
by keeping lac up and only pulv when its about to expire, you get the threat from the bleeds
i will also do a thrash once in a while if i have an open gcd, just for some extra threat on a boss

it doesnt really hurt much to hit pulv asap, so if you have a movement phase coming up, might as well hiut pulv to make sure your buff stays up as much as possible, or if you have a mass of adds inc

if i am tanking a boss with adds, i will make sure i get pulv buff up and running, then hit thrash and if its enough adds with enough health, berserk
seeing mangle hit 3 mobs and all crits is a wonderful thing (saw over 80k damage from a single serking mangle, plus 35k plus thrash ticks)

edit: also mangle is a HUGE threat generator, think of it as the bear form of shield slam, just instead of sword&board, its berserk procs
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
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Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Levantine » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:40 pm

IIRC the threat from Lacerate bleeds used to be next to nothing, all the threat was frontloaded into the actual application of the dot, not it's ticking. That'd mean that you'd be losing threat overall from delaying Pulverize. That may have changed though, I cbf keeping up with bear theory these days.
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Darielle » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:29 pm

Thrash scales better for Bears than Lacerate. Spamming Lacerates creates more SD shields.

Pulv only exists to maintain the crit buff for more shields. It's useless for threat.
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Arcand » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:52 am

Thanks, all. Gloomthorn hit 85 on Tuesday and I'd like to have more of a clue by the time she hits heroics.
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby bldavis » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:57 am

Levantine wrote:IIRC the threat from Lacerate bleeds used to be next to nothing, all the threat was frontloaded into the actual application of the dot, not it's ticking. That'd mean that you'd be losing threat overall from delaying Pulverize. That may have changed though, I cbf keeping up with bear theory these days.

hmm
well i typically hit pulv anyway from just finger twitching so....
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Dedic » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:40 pm

Seems like the thread is headed a bit off-topic. Perhaps a Bear Tank thread should be started for this? That way other Bear Tanks could more easily find this discussion and help them to be better at what they do as well.

To the OP discussion, I have watched DK tanks and Warrior tanks, but I have not seen a Druid tank since pre-cata. DK tanks do crazy DPS from what I've seen. Warrior DPS seems to be as crap as ours (Pally). Threat seems to be more of an issue for me than for them, but I suspect it's because I take less damage due to higher avoidance/block (thus my Vengeance doesn't go up as fast as theirs). On the other hand, from what my healers tell me, I am easier to keep alive than the other two tanks, and my on-the-spot heals of party/raid members is much appreciated by them as well.

As far as what mechanics are behind my observations, I am not that deep into the theory to have an answer. I leave that to my mathematical betters.

On a side note, my healers and most everyone I talk to (at least those who don't PvP) are just as upset as I am that WoG is slated to have a 20s CD.

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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby Arcand » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:13 pm

My bear is now about half heroic geared (almost all from JP -
she's having incredibly bad luck with drops). I can certainly
imagine why bears might be dropping off; I don't like how she
feels at all.

Trying to keep in mind that I'm getting some groups that heavily
outgear me and are just farming Valor Points...I still feel like
my threat's not too good, especially on packs. I can hold single
targets well enough but Thrash is slow (cooldown, and it's a DoT)
and Swipe is a bad joke these days...if my group is AoEing hard
I'm in crisis management mode all the time. This is with mostly
threat gems and no reforging to survival stats.

Berserk is very powerful, but people use it as the rebuttal to all
bear concerns even though it's on a 3-minute cooldown.

For locking down a large group fast and hard, which is hugely important
in groups, I'd say the ranking goes

BEST
Warrior
Bear with Berserk
Paladin
Death Knight
.
.
.
Rogue spamming Fan of Knives
.
.
.
Hunter Tenacity Pet
Bear without Berserk
Very poorly played Affliction Warlock
WORST
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Re: lvl 85 tank comparison?

Postby bldavis » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:17 pm

since we keep talking about bears on this thread im just going to start a new one for bear discussion
that way we can talk about all 4 tanks on this thread
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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