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Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby yappo » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:04 pm

Digren wrote:Has anyone seen semi-reliable data about the number of people who have attempted various raids? It's my impression that the percentages have fallen sharply in Cata compared to Wrath.

In my case the 10/25 exclusivity ruined our guild alliance. The stronger member guilds stuck with their internal 10s. My guild was only 25; we've geared and attracted a few raiders so that only now, this week, will we first attempt a 10 raid.

Based on my perception, the number of players for whom heroics are end game has gone way up. Hence, I understand that aspect of yappo's point.


I can only speak for Sporeggar realm EU side. For that realm only, yes, we're not merely talking radically falling percentages. Of my guildies (myself not included) two can remember occurences of an announced pug-raid in /trade. Neither known if those raids materialised or not.

WotLK saw (again on that realm only) one pug-raid form half-hourly to hourly.

BH/VoA doesn't count. I'm referring to proper raids into current quasi end-game content. By quasi end-game I mean current content but on normal difficulty.

I'm logged on almost daily, and I have yet to see ONE Cata raid announced.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:43 pm

It took a while for pug raids to get established on my server in Wrath, AFAIK. The increased difficulty of Cata raids reduces the talent pool to skilled players, and many do not yet have geared alts that they can play when their main is already locked.

That said, I'd be interested in seeing some GDKP runs. Unfortunately, when my raid group can only kill 1-2 bosses in Bastion, I'm unlikely to get a PUG that can do better, I believe. Or, I'm unlikely to RUN a pug that can do better.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Digren » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:04 pm

Kelaan wrote:It took a while for pug raids to get established on my server in Wrath, AFAIK. The increased difficulty of Cata raids reduces the talent pool to skilled players, and many do not yet have geared alts that they can play when their main is already locked.

Since, of course, they can't use their main in 25 PUG when they are locked to a 10 guild, or vice versa.

That said, I'd be interested in seeing some GDKP runs. Unfortunately, when my raid group can only kill 1-2 bosses in Bastion, I'm unlikely to get a PUG that can do better, I believe. Or, I'm unlikely to RUN a pug that can do better.

Yup, and it's one shot a week or nothing.

So far everything I said was wrong about the exclusivity has happened, to the detriment of the game. (The overall challenge increase and 10/25 alignment are different issues, both of which I support. It's the lockout exclusivity that is wrong with Cata raiding in my opinion.)
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby yappo » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:10 pm

Digren, as for 'reliable' data.

Is it Wowhead that runs a tab on how many times an item has been looted? If so, that would indirectly give some information on how often a specific boss is killed, even though it gives just about zero data on the number of wipes on said content.

As you noted, we also have to take into account the shared lockout. It does limit the number of pugs in two ways:

1) Simply by restricting the number of raids available to a raiding toon.

2) By restricting the raidcapable pugging population.

1) above is simple. Half the number of raids available.
2) above is a result of, for example, you belonging to a 10-man (non-strict) raid-guild. Still would have allowed you to air your toon more or less succesfully in 25-man pugs earlier. Not so any longer.

Arguably you have more time to ding a second toon to 85 and gear it up (if we change the problem 180 degrees and state that WotLK raiding forced you to do BOTH 10-man and 25-man in order to get badges fast enough).
That does, however, not ring true as far as my memory of pugs go. Most of the people I saw (read that as the semi-competent bodies we dragged through raids) pugged EITHER 10 OR 25 man.

Anyway, the only thing remotely on-topic with this, is that I fear that a LOT more people draw conclusions about a class/spec/whatever from heroic 5-man only compared with WotLK, because they simply don't get to see anything else. The only "raid" available is easier to kill than half the bosses in 5-hc.
This has me worried.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:40 pm

yappo wrote:WotLK raiding forced you to do BOTH 10-man and 25-man in order to get badges fast enough

This is how I felt in Wrath also. In cata, if I miss a raid, or if we don't do well, I know that I can either try to continue on the weekend or leave it for next week, and don't feel penalized for not raiding four or five nights a week.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:56 pm

Kelaan wrote:
yappo wrote:WotLK raiding forced you to do BOTH 10-man and 25-man in order to get badges fast enough

This is how I felt in Wrath also. In cata, if I miss a raid, or if we don't do well, I know that I can either try to continue on the weekend or leave it for next week, and don't feel penalized for not raiding four or five nights a week.


This. So much this.

When I stopped raiding in WotLK I felt like I got a life back. When Cataclysm came out and I started raiding there, I felt like I didn't give up my life to do so.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Digren » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:07 am

Kelaan wrote:
yappo wrote:WotLK raiding forced you to do BOTH 10-man and 25-man in order to get badges fast enough

This is how I felt in Wrath also. In cata, if I miss a raid, or if we don't do well, I know that I can either try to continue on the weekend or leave it for next week, and don't feel penalized for not raiding four or five nights a week.

They could have solved this by letting you get loot/badges from only one per week though. *sigh* Too late now regardless.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Chunes » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:45 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Kelaan wrote:
yappo wrote:WotLK raiding forced you to do BOTH 10-man and 25-man in order to get badges fast enough

This is how I felt in Wrath also. In cata, if I miss a raid, or if we don't do well, I know that I can either try to continue on the weekend or leave it for next week, and don't feel penalized for not raiding four or five nights a week.


This. So much this.

When I stopped raiding in WotLK I felt like I got a life back. When Cataclysm came out and I started raiding there, I felt like I didn't give up my life to do so.


In agreement.

Thankfully, not having to farm 10 and 25 content makes it so that my raid group can clear everything in a single night if we know our second or third raid nights in a week will be interrupted.

Granted now that we are moving into hardmodes, we tend to use every minute of our 3 nights raiding.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby rodos » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:46 pm

Digren wrote:
Kelaan wrote:
yappo wrote:WotLK raiding forced you to do BOTH 10-man and 25-man in order to get badges fast enough

This is how I felt in Wrath also. In cata, if I miss a raid, or if we don't do well, I know that I can either try to continue on the weekend or leave it for next week, and don't feel penalized for not raiding four or five nights a week.

They could have solved this by letting you get loot/badges from only one per week though. *sigh* Too late now regardless.

Blizz have said that they don't want a situation where you kill a boss but are not eligible for loot. The rationale being that certain key raid members (read: tanks and healers) would feel pressured to raid for no reward just to support their guild.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Digren » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:15 am

rodos wrote:
Digren wrote:
Kelaan wrote:This is how I felt in Wrath also. In cata, if I miss a raid, or if we don't do well, I know that I can either try to continue on the weekend or leave it for next week, and don't feel penalized for not raiding four or five nights a week.

They could have solved this by letting you get loot/badges from only one per week though. *sigh* Too late now regardless.

Blizz have said that they don't want a situation where you kill a boss but are not eligible for loot. The rationale being that certain key raid members (read: tanks and healers) would feel pressured to raid for no reward just to support their guild.

I was trying to let this go again... but jeez, can't people just grow a backbone and say no sometimes? And to people who say they feel or felt this pressure - are you being pressured now to level a second tank as an alt so you can support your guild more? If not, why not? I don't see the difference. If you guild demands one, it should demand both.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby yappo » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:20 am

Digren wrote:I was trying to let this go again... but jeez, can't people just grow a backbone and say no sometimes? And to people who say they feel or felt this pressure - are you being pressured now to level a second tank as an alt so you can support your guild more? If not, why not? I don't see the difference. If you guild demands one, it should demand both.


Well, even though I've never been in a proper raiding guild I can still see a difference.

Unless the dps/healers are dinging raiding alts, they're just as locked out as the tank.

Previously, if enough dps/healers wanted to, say clean out 10-man after the weekly 25, they'd need a tank for the job. Arguably said healers/dps could have felt just as forced to run that extra raid as the tank in order to avoid falling behind gearwise. I can see the threat of being benched pushing people to effectively overgearing the content, not because the gear was actually needed, but because "enough" gear wouldn't make them "overperform" and thus see them benched.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:09 am

I was trying to let this go again... but jeez, can't people just grow a backbone and say no sometimes? And to people who say they feel or felt this pressure - are you being pressured now to level a second tank as an alt so you can support your guild more? If not, why not? I don't see the difference. If you guild demands one, it should demand both.


One of the things about raiding is you don't want to let down guildies or leave them hanging, and people being people will take that to extremes at times.

I've had to tell a guy to stop healing Kara while he was arguing that he'd be fine because he could hold a cloth to his nose to stop the blood with one hand and hit FoL with the other.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Malthrax » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:43 am

Addicts can't control themselves, thats why.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Digren » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:51 am

Malthrax wrote:Addicts can't control themselves, thats why.

So when someone is too weak to control their own behavior, they should encourage the government to step in and regulate it for them and everyone else, too.

How many people here agree with that? How many agree with it if "the government" is Blizzard?

These questions are rhetorical. Really, just let it go...
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Kelaan » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:22 am

Digren wrote:Jeez, can't people just grow a backbone and say no sometimes? And to people who say they feel or felt this pressure - are you being pressured now to level a second tank as an alt so you can support your guild more? If not, why not? I don't see the difference. If you guild demands one, it should demand both.


Our guild is not so hardcore as to demand a second tank, since most people only have one toon. However, the "already locked" excuse is pretty strong. If we didn't have that, there absolutely would be peer pressure to "be a team player" in many guilds, mine included. On the other hand it would make FORMING the raids easier. Heck, I wouldn't mind tanking some of the trickier bosses over and over until I learn to do them RIGHT, but don't want to feel obligated.

It does make me sad, though, when I can't tank Baradin Hold for guildmates to do a DPS check once I'm already locked.

If you can choose to get X points for normal raiding, or 2X for doing it twice, there will be a subset of people who argue that they are "more prepared" for having farmed the 2X points (and gear that it buys). I'm glad that I don't have that option, as it means that playing relatively casually means that I'm not that far behind our most active players.
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