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CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby wrathblood » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:50 am

That's interesting. I actually find that I'm, if anything, wishing I could hit J MORE often than I used to, because of, in equal measure, mana issues from using HW and Conc virtually on cooldown (because of the available GCDs) as well as... because of empty GCDs.

I find myself actually using DP occasionally during fights for the mana. Obviously I'm still using it on the pull for a good opening THWACK, but before I'd only ever use it again if it was a fight if I needed to suddenly whack something hard mid-fight (which happened more often because it was a burn phase and I felt like whacking the boss with a SHoR - J - SHoR than any serious need). Now I find myself primarily using it for mana.

As for the change itself, it is what it is. We've voiced our objections loud and clear to Blizz and Blizz hasn't changed its mind. IMO, the vast majority of the pain was how the change was communicated and handled, rather than the change itself. Adding to that was perhaps the feeling that our bright theorycrafting lights got ignored just like the knuckledragging rogues get ignored when they cry about Vanish still being broken. But that's our problem, not Blizzard's.

Since we're still viable and playable, at this point we need to get over it and go back to playing.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Aerron » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:39 am

wrathblood wrote:I find myself actually using DP occasionally during fights for the mana. Obviously I'm still using it on the pull for a good opening THWACK, but before I'd only ever use it again if it was a fight if I needed to suddenly whack something hard mid-fight (which happened more often because it was a burn phase and I felt like whacking the boss with a SHoR - J - SHoR than any serious need). Now I find myself primarily using it for mana.


Hmm, and I thought I was the only one. I'm using SoT a lot more these days for the glyph, and try to switch to SoI when I get low, but I do occasionally get caught with low mana. Which means I'm actually using DP more for mana regen than anything. Heck, I've even glyphed it for the extra regen.

An unintended side-effect maybe, but this change has made a one-trick pony into a more useful ability.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby baneoftruth » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:56 am

theckhd wrote:Doxa's talking about the "Official Blue Post, PROT PALLY is cooked" thread (which used to be here), which was deleted. Which is also odd, because that thread was much tamer and more civil than the ret one you linked. Again, there doesn't seem to be much point in deleting the thread; the title was sensationalist, of course, but there was a good, solid discussion going on between a few smart posters about resource generation mechanics. It's sad to see the thread nuked, probably by an over-zealous CM.

Luckily, I still have it in my browser history, so I was able to go back and recover my second (and third, fourth, and fifth) posts for posterity. The first was already copied in several locations here.


I went to go check the active discussion in the thread/give it a bump and felt my heart sink a bit at the "This topic has been deleted" error message :-/
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Phonic » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:11 am

For me, the bottom line is that I just reforged to some hit and exp... it's not big deal atm. I've turned casual for Cata anyways, so we're only 12/12 right now starting heroic modes. This week in raiding, including killing Nef, I haven't really seen too much of a difference overall, but that's probably because I went from 3% hit to 7.5% with +hit food. For survivability, not many changes here tbh. Finally mana usage can be dicey, especially in fights where I need to Rebuke a lot or Holy Radiance. Otherwise, I've been running the 2/2 HG for mana reduction and that seems to make things pretty decent during the fight. Finally, I just switch to SOI anyways if I'm having issues. By then threat is a non-issue.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Arincia » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:50 am

Probably the most likely argument you could use to get them to change how cs/hotr works would be mana returns from judgment. The fact is the mana regen for us was tuned around csx3+judgment+as/holy wrath+finisher then repeat. Now that's got broken when cs misses and that increases our mana costs. Add in the fact we were not tuned on mana returns to interrupt as well with unexpected fillers and it really starts being a problem if you try to use 3HP for any finisher with low exp/hit and fill the gaps. (though you can glyph for mana free rebuke).
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Mordral » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:37 pm

Have missed Judgements always not put up JotW? A bad string of flaccid CS/Hammers and Js make for a miserable mana experience.

I reforged to hit/exp caps and did not find myself getting rolled noticeably more than usual.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby mclem » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:07 am

After indicating earlier that I'd not really had any significant issues since the change, I have to take it back somewhat. We did Chimaeron last night; and, because it's a healing-intense fight, I swapped to Seal of Insight from the outset (with the usual second tank actually tanking first for threat purposes). I *really* noticed the lack of hits resulting in significantly fewer WoGs, which was notable because that's a fight where I predominantly use WoGs on other people rather than myself.

I'm wondering if I was better off sticking with Seal of Truth - which makes a marked difference in my hit rate - to get more reliable WoGs out instead of SoI for self-healing purposes (after all, SoI isn't likely to get me up past the magic 10k)
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:38 am

Mordral wrote:Have missed Judgements always not put up JotW? A bad string of flaccid CS/Hammers and Js make for a miserable mana experience.


Yes.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:25 am

More than anything, I think the issue I've felt the most as a result of this change is that I know notice very easily when I lose EDIT: sacred duty as a result of a ShoR miss/dodge/parry.

I can deal with the occasional CS miss. But man the wind gets pulled from your sails when you've worked hard to get a 3 stack only to see your ShoR miss and *poof* EDIT: Sacred duty... gone

EDIT: Sorry, I meant Sacred Duty, not HP.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:55 pm

Getting exactly 1 holy power in an entire meteor slash window while the other tank had argaloth made me very, very sad last night. Myself and a slightly undergeared warrior had dps riding our tails the entire fight thanks to how vengeance (doesn't) work on that fight, and me never really being able to crowbar ahead with a few 3HP SD crits.

I'm also not digging my slightly weaker and highly unpredictable threat now that my DK co-tank can nearly double me up on TPS... he was sitting at 45k TPS for a good 10+ seconds single target on BoT trash last week. I'm lucky if I get above 25k over a real window. Of course, this is off topic. :)
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby milesfromhome » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:53 pm

I don't know how you guys are getting by thinking it's "no big deal." It wrecks a lot of the fun of tanking for me. We are already far behind on tanking DPS and overall threat, especially in AoE situations, compared to the other tanks. This just sets us back even farther.

Right now, my saving grace is that I take less damage than the other tanks. So I'm supposed to give up my one boon and reforge a bunch of avoidance and mitigation so that I can actually hit the target once in a while and get some Holy Power?

This change really took the wind out of my sails.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:41 pm

milesfromhome wrote:Right now, my saving grace is that I take less damage than the other tanks.


This is a huge saving grace. It's nice that other tanks do more damage or generate more threat (when, thanks to the crappyass Vengeance mechanic, threat is not really an issue), but the TPS/DPS of a dead tank is 0.

At least we have the option to re-gear for more threat. Other tanks don't really have an option to gear for more CDs.

But yes, random proc based tanking is stupid.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:36 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
milesfromhome wrote:Right now, my saving grace is that I take less damage than the other tanks.


This is a huge saving grace. It's nice that other tanks do more damage or generate more threat (when, thanks to the crappyass Vengeance mechanic, threat is not really an issue), but the TPS/DPS of a dead tank is 0.

At least we have the option to re-gear for more threat. Other tanks don't really have an option to gear for more CDs.

But yes, random proc based tanking is stupid.


I ran BH the other day with one of our DK dps with a blood offspec as the second tank. I think he summed it up nicely when, upon inspecting the meters, he said "Wow, I took less damage, did more self healing, and dealt more damage than you did during that fight."

>_<
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby inthedrops » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:21 am

So far since the changes I can count two instances where this change made me sad. Both on same boss but that's a coincidence.

One was just a DPS'er pulling soon after the pull. I just had an unlucky streak and didn't notice how bad it was so I can take the blame.

Second happened when I died in air phase during Atramedes, got ressed, had next to no mana, no vengeance, missed my first holy power generating attack, meanwhile the entire raid was still going full blown.

Most fights aren't single tank fights anymore that are recoverable after a tank death so I guess this will be rare. But it sucked.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby wrathblood » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:38 am

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought this was the Maintankadin Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations forum, not the WoW General Forum. You know, a place where people crunch numbers and figure things out, not QQ about how totally broken we are and how all the other classes are now better.

There are a thousand places on the internet where that kind of discussion is totally fine, but frankly this isn't one of them. No, this isn't EJ, the standards are much friendlier here (I'd actually get a temp ban on EJ for this post for "Back seat moderating") and, yes, we're all upset about this. But frankly, this website and forum do have some standards and should be better than this.

If you think DKs are better tanks across the board than us, then great. Break out a spreadsheet and crunch some numbers so folks can discuss it. Maybe you'll use an interesting approach or figure out something intriguing while doing it. But enough with the "woe is me" stuff, there's been more than enough.
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