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Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:46 pm

thegreatheed wrote:It could affect heroics, but again, PVE isn't really balanced around heroics.


Trust me, it doesn't affect heroics as far as threat goes. It does, however, affect heroics for survivability, so those of us who are already overgeared can regear for absurd threat (and dps), which increases threat (vengenace ramps up faster as we take more damage in threat gear), which in turn adds to the (incorrect) assumption that paladin tanks are overpowered.

Now, why regear? Because we have less tools to handle crap happening, and the easiest way to fix that is to take even more damage and make sure fights take less time due to us landing every damn blow, which in turn kicks our dps sky-high.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Flex » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:48 pm

yappo wrote:Now, why regear? Because we have less tools to handle crap happening


What is False.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby thegreatheed » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:28 pm

yappo wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:It could affect heroics, but again, PVE isn't really balanced around heroics.


Trust me, it doesn't affect heroics as far as threat goes. It does, however, affect heroics for survivability, so those of us who are already overgeared can regear for absurd threat (and dps), which increases threat (vengenace ramps up faster as we take more damage in threat gear), which in turn adds to the (incorrect) assumption that paladin tanks are overpowered.

Now, why regear? Because we have less tools to handle crap happening, and the easiest way to fix that is to take even more damage and make sure fights take less time due to us landing every damn blow, which in turn kicks our dps sky-high.


I really don't have any clue what your point is.

My comment is about inconsistent hopo generation. It doesn't matter in raids. Vengeance stacks mean plenty of threat. Heroics don't have high vengeance counters. Combine that with "proper" paladin tank gearing, maximizing mastery, you have inconsistent hopo generation and low vengeance. The CS change affects heroics more than raids.

I have no clue why you then add in a sentence about overgeared people. Overgeared players always trivialize content. Overgeared paladins will not lead to the (incorrect) assumption that paladins are overpowered any more than Overgeared warrior will lead to the same conclusion. And if you overgear the content, changes rarely matter, because any overgeared tank can trivialize any previous tier content. So why are we talking about overgeared players in heroics again????

So, the only reason to regear would be to have consistent hopo generation. that's a convenience issue more than a threat issue. in current content, in appropriate gear, vengeance stacks high enough to hold threat. This was the case when we were all starting heroics. That's the case now that we're slogging through t11 and heroics.

Again, I really don't understand your point. at all.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Mcduffie » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:07 pm

That's the case now that we're slogging through t11 and heroics.


Maybe I'm wrong here. But it sounds like you think raiding and heroics are hard right now because of the change to our hit?

They're not.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby thegreatheed » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:55 pm

Mcduffie wrote:
That's the case now that we're slogging through t11 and heroics.


Maybe I'm wrong here. But it sounds like you think raiding and heroics are hard right now because of the change to our hit?

They're not.


Did you read my posts?

Obviously not. You just took a phrase and disagreed with it at random it seems.

That phrase taken entirely out of context is related to tanks having NO problems holding threat with NO hit/expertise because of ample vengeance.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Mcduffie » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:34 pm

thegreatheed wrote:
Mcduffie wrote:
That's the case now that we're slogging through t11 and heroics.


Maybe I'm wrong here. But it sounds like you think raiding and heroics are hard right now because of the change to our hit?

They're not.


Did you read my posts?

Obviously not. You just took a phrase and disagreed with it at random it seems.

That phrase taken entirely out of context is related to tanks having NO problems holding threat with NO hit/expertise because of ample vengeance.


Nope. Didn't read your posts. This thread doesn't get a lot of my time. Thus the "maybe I'm wrong here" part. So, back to it again, since you didn't answer:
raiding and heroics are hard right now because of the change to our hit?
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby yappo » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:28 am

thegreatheed wrote:
yappo wrote:
thegreatheed wrote:It could affect heroics, but again, PVE isn't really balanced around heroics.


Trust me, it doesn't affect heroics as far as threat goes. It does, however, affect heroics for survivability, so those of us who are already overgeared can regear for absurd threat (and dps), which increases threat (vengenace ramps up faster as we take more damage in threat gear), which in turn adds to the (incorrect) assumption that paladin tanks are overpowered.

Now, why regear? Because we have less tools to handle crap happening, and the easiest way to fix that is to take even more damage and make sure fights take less time due to us landing every damn blow, which in turn kicks our dps sky-high.


I really don't have any clue what your point is.

My comment is about inconsistent hopo generation. It doesn't matter in raids. Vengeance stacks mean plenty of threat. Heroics don't have high vengeance counters. Combine that with "proper" paladin tank gearing, maximizing mastery, you have inconsistent hopo generation and low vengeance. The CS change affects heroics more than raids.

I have no clue why you then add in a sentence about overgeared people. Overgeared players always trivialize content. Overgeared paladins will not lead to the (incorrect) assumption that paladins are overpowered any more than Overgeared warrior will lead to the same conclusion. And if you overgear the content, changes rarely matter, because any overgeared tank can trivialize any previous tier content. So why are we talking about overgeared players in heroics again????

So, the only reason to regear would be to have consistent hopo generation. that's a convenience issue more than a threat issue. in current content, in appropriate gear, vengeance stacks high enough to hold threat. This was the case when we were all starting heroics. That's the case now that we're slogging through t11 and heroics.

Again, I really don't understand your point. at all.



Ok, let me explain in simple words to make it easier to understand.

1) Paladin threat scales inversly with gear if we gear properly. This is more visible i heroics.

2) Paladin threat scales MORE inversly with gear compared with other tanking specs because we mitigate more damage as part of our tanking.

3) Paladin long term threat (boss-fights) is STILL not an issue in heroics, patch or no patch.

4) A tank should have proper gear for all content said tank is tanking. With access to T11 quality gear that means building a threat set IF that tank is still slogging through heroics. This is more true now than pre-patch due to the random HoPo generation.

5) The difference between a paladin tank in proper raid gear (max survivability) and threat gear (including swapping seals) is about 100% threat over the full course of a heroic.

6) Apart from pulls and AoE burning trash, that 100% exta threat simply doesn't matter, but it will sure as hell become noticable when more and more overgeared paladin tanks pad out that hit-rating and expertise-rating to get smoother random heroic runs.

7) When a large discrepancy in performance seemingly results from a patch people take note.

8) People taking note of a large and visibly positive discrepancy tend to complain about overpowered.

9) Enough complaints about being overpowered, unless mitigated by a solid explanation that the overpoweredness is actually only an illusion, could result in even further nerfs.

10) While lowly heroics might not count for those raiding, the overall raiding population has decreased radically since WotLK, which in turn makes visibility in heroics more likely to be perceived as what goes for actual end-game.

11) While people tanking lowly heroics might not count as tanks, we still have functioning brains. If the nerfhammer lands on our spec due to reports about said spec being overpowered in heroics, then such a nerf will, surprisingly enough, hurt real tanks, ie those tanking raids.


Was that easy enough to understand?
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Loras » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:42 am

If you're a low-geared tank, you gear for survivability regardless of the CS miss rate, cause you get roflstomped in heroics. If you're a high-geared tank, you gear for survivability regardless of the CS miss rate, because you are tanking shithard raids and you need that survivability, while at the same time that overgearing makes it possible for you to not care about heroics much as you're overgearing them. What nerfs, what overpoweredness?
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Bobness » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:44 am

yappo wrote: Was that easy enough to understand?


A take a deep breath... & let it out slowly..
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby yappo » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:40 am

Bobness wrote:
yappo wrote: Was that easy enough to understand?


A take a deep breath... & let it out slowly..


Well, as is rather clear from the posts above, people either seem to take leave of their brains the moment they start tanking for a raiding guild, or they start believing that the little bubble consisting of their raiding guild actually mirrors what's perceived by the outside world.

I'm reading a lot of "Goddag yxskaft" responses. "Goddag yxskaft" referring to a Swedish expression describing someone incapable of providing an answer correlated to the topic in question. I guess you'd call it 'herp derp' responses or something along those lines.

I've made two attempts to write that 1) Treat is actually still fine, 2) before 4.0.6 I couldn't be arsed to change my gear for roflstomping heroics because it didn't matter, 3) the patch came with an idiot change making me irritated enough to go fix that gear for roflstomping heoics and 4) people will take notice of me fixing my crap due to the discrete (in the mathematical sense of the word) change of performance since patch while I go roflstomping heroics.

I never wrote that tanking a raid in threat gear is smart, because I'll get my head bashed in by bosses if I do.
I never wrote that paladin tanks are overpowered, because we aren't.
I wrote that paladin tanks adjusting their gear (as a result of being irritated by a stupid change) for easy content could create an illusion of us being overpowered.

I'm already getting comments in randoms that content is easy when tanked by OP class, just like I did late ICC when I adjusted my gear (mostly by getting a slow agility one-hander) to the actual threat-problem cropping up. During ICC we bypassed the threat-problem by swapping unneeded survivability for insane tank-dps, and knee-jerk reactions were that tankadins were OP.

This thread is about observations done post Cs change, and I'm adding my observations, and my associated concerns about a future worst case scenario.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:51 am

Paladin damage isn't particularly going to register on any radar just because overgeared people decide to blitz Heroics.
Hell, some of us are already blitzing Heroics as multiple classes - tanking in Kitty spec/gear etc. tanking as Paladins/Warriors/DK's in partial/full DPS gear.

I have on idea why you'd get the notion that that would lead to nerfs of any sort.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Flex » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:18 am

I've been tanking heroics with a hit capped set for a while now since I hate when AS misses.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:29 am

To attempt to summarize for yappo: The CS change will piss off so many Paladins that those with access to decent gear will specifically generate a heroic tanking set made of hit/expertise (because the straight up higher stats on their spare epic gear will allow them to do this while still being unsquishy in a heroic context), which will cause them to do more damage, which will in turn cause us to look like we, as a class, are the best heroic tank, because apparently no other class will go out of their way to build a heroic tanking set. This will lead to nerfs for the class because the developers listen to whiners on the forums.

Is that about right?
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby Digren » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:44 am

Has anyone seen semi-reliable data about the number of people who have attempted various raids? It's my impression that the percentages have fallen sharply in Cata compared to Wrath.

In my case the 10/25 exclusivity ruined our guild alliance. The stronger member guilds stuck with their internal 10s. My guild was only 25; we've geared and attracted a few raiders so that only now, this week, will we first attempt a 10 raid.

Based on my perception, the number of players for whom heroics are end game has gone way up. Hence, I understand that aspect of yappo's point.
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Re: Observations post Cs Change - Pulling out of frustrations.

Postby yappo » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:58 pm

Sabindeus wrote:To attempt to summarize for yappo: The CS change will piss off so many Paladins that those with access to decent gear will specifically generate a heroic tanking set made of hit/expertise (because the straight up higher stats on their spare epic gear will allow them to do this while still being unsquishy in a heroic context), which will cause them to do more damage, which will in turn cause us to look like we, as a class, are the best heroic tank, because apparently no other class will go out of their way to build a heroic tanking set. This will lead to nerfs for the class because the developers listen to whiners on the forums.

Is that about right?


In essence, yes. Obviously as a worst case scenario.
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