Luck of the Draw buffed.

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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:18 pm

True. my +427stam JC trinket came at just the right time :)

Agreed with the conqueror/vanquisher/protector.
That was the ONE good thing about TOC - everyone got the same tokens. End result, everyone eventually got their tier gear.
Yet with T10 i was stuck with 10.0 shoulders until i burnt out of raiding and quit for a few months.

TLDR:
I dont want: "Well ive done instance/raid XYZ 3 times, and got all the gear i need"
But i do want to avoid "Ok well thats fail run number 20 of normal HoL for the eternally folded blade, excuse me while I go post letterbombs to blizz"
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Loras » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:09 am

Maybe kind of an offtopic, but I kinda miss the WotlK heroics... Not becuase I find the Cata ones hard, but because I could somewhat predict my playtime with them. That's why to some extent it's good that they buffed this buff (uh...). Right now, with a 40-minute waiting timer for a dpser (haven't queued as one, just what my guild is telling me), and you getting, let's say, Deadmines, as a random HC (especially pre-nerf), with an entry-gear-level party that is also a bit clueless, you are in for some good 2-2.5 hours total fun. Or heroic Grim Batol pre-nerf, with all the wipes and replacements. Sorry, but my "daily random" taking almost as much as a whole raid is completely ridiculous. Yes, WotlK heroics were easy, and yes, at the end of the expansion we have been overgearing them, and you could do under-10min runs, but I just find the pace nowadays really slow. And especially if you've queued in to help a guildie, you can't even leave because you'll make yourself look bad in front of him. Besides, leaving is not the solution.

I remember a 6-hour NON-completed Sunken Temple run in the early days... And while it was somewhat interesting experience exploring a new place and strategies, I don't wanna go back to those days... That won't be a game to fill your free time with, that would be a 2nd life... I'm not on my school summer holidays anymore, nor are lots of other people :)
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby yappo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:43 am

Loras wrote:and replacements. Sorry, but my "daily random" taking almost as much as a whole raid is completely ridiculous. Yes, WotlK heroics were easy, and yes, at the end of the expansion we have been overgearing them, and you could do under-10min runs, but I just find the pace nowadays really slow.


Arguably queing up as tank (considering that this is maintankadin after all) you do control one of the key-roles to a smooth run.

My personal experience (and thus anecdotal) is one horribad run a week, and that is, quite frankly, a huge improvement from WotLK even though I could solo most of the hc-content.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Loras » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:35 am

Well yes, I am not talking about myself, as I said, I haven't queued as a dpser, mostly doing full guild runs or 3/5 ones, and I make sure that even a bad healer can heal me (lol), but in general it's a much worse experience for the average player.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:04 am

The wild swings in completion time are problematic. Like, last night I noticed it took almost 15 minutes to finish DM from the point you actually reach the docks (we did have one pug 6k DPS hunter in the group and the 10k rogue disconnected every other minute, so that didn't help). By comparison, you can do an entire VP run in under 20 minutes.

I know blizz intended people to be able to tank in dps gear just by switching specs -- hell, how many of us have lolheroic sets using dps gear already? -- hoping that it would help alleviate the tank shortage problem.

I don't think this has worked at all. Tanking isn't just a matter of switching specs (and in the past, gear). It's an entire skillset. I recall people yelping about "oh noez DPS plate r takin our jorbs" when Blizz was discussing the design change.

Heh.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Loras » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:45 pm

I don't think heroics are on a level that supports dps gear (or at least not full deck) on the tank really. Not unless you have a solid group that you're familiar with. But it just reminds me about some WotlK instances, like comparing a Drak'Tharon run (with skipping the Lich boss) under 10 min, and CoT: Strat pre-nerf, where it could take 30+ minutes. Just the situation now is 30 min or 1h30min+... That's not exactly casual or hardcore, that's just annoying time consumption.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby PsiVen » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:50 pm

Are you talking about Cataclysm heroics still here? The healing changes in Cata make it dramatically more of a bad idea to be tanking in DPS gear, unless you do it with impeccable CC. Swapping in a few DPS pieces counteracts the mitigation upgrade of an entire tier of tanking gear.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:26 pm

PsiVen wrote:Are you talking about Cataclysm heroics still here? The healing changes in Cata make it dramatically more of a bad idea to be tanking in DPS gear, unless you do it with impeccable CC. Swapping in a few DPS pieces counteracts the mitigation upgrade of an entire tier of tanking gear.


Yes, Cat heroics with no CC.

My warrior's hit/xpt set consists of:
DPS neck from VP
DPS badge shoulders
DPS Gloves (granted, they have mastery)
DPS Rep belt (reforged crit->parry)
Skyshard Ring (Crit/expertise)
Phos Ring (parry->hit/xpt)
Magnetite Mirror (xpt->hit)
Mark of Khardros (str/mastery)

She has 9.46% dodge, 11.61% parry, and 44.11% block, 139k HP unbuffed in this set.

I had a pug paladin healer today in half 333 gear and no epics heal a non-CC'ed LC, hovering around 80% mana for every pull not involving a Plague Bringer, when his mana dipped to 35% (and I used CDs, which I generally always do on those packs).

The total DPS done breakdown was:
(G)Raiding mage: 12,509,169 (14k)
(G)Social Shadow Priest: 8,865,057 (10k)
(G)Prot Warrior: 8,493,545 (9k)
(G)Alt hunter, fresh l85: 7,114,667 (8k)
(P)Paladin Healer. 6.7k HPS

So it's not like our DPS was amazing or the healing requirements were particularly onerous.

My overall damage taken was 4,385,773; sadly I don't have a DTPS breakdown. Or is that somewhere in recount?

(all of this is still sitting in my recount). So we were sitting at 10% LotD buff.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Gracerath » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:23 am

Yeah I think the 40m queues have less to do with a tank shortage and more to do with it actually taking 40+mins to complete a damn dungeon. I know I want to pull my face off every time I get Grim Batol. Not cause the bosses are particularly difficult but because there is so. much. trash. The last few times I've been, we did a lot better at softening them up with the dragons but if you have a run through that isn't great with the dragons, dear lord.

I find it interesting listening to other people's horror stories about certain dungeons. Personally, I LOVE Throne of Tides. Its short and fun for me. I do remember getting annoyed at some point there when we didn't have great CC / interrupts and the healers just kept on chain healing themselves over and over. Grim Batol is my Achilles' Heel. I'm fairly neutral to all the other dungeons.

I think some dungeons are easier to do without CC than others. With my normal group, I'm able to AE tank Lost City and BRC fairly easily. Stonecore on the way to Ozruk too. I dont think I'd like the latter half of VP without some CC though. Of course I'm all JP geared out with a smattering of VP / crafted epics and we all knew that once you are outgeared for them, you can start being a bit lazier.

RE: wearing dps gear to tank. Looking at those numbers, I'm not even sure its worth wearing DPS gear to tank. I do those kinds of numbers in my tank gear while having the added survivability. Though with mastery, hit and expertise not necessarily being bad tank stats, who knows.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:02 am

9k was unusually low for my warrior; it usually does an overall avg of 11k, but again, depends on how much aoe tanking is going on. All of the boss fights took a while due to sub-par DPS, which drives the avg down.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Flipthebird » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:41 pm

EDIT*** I only read first two pages before I posted this...so...

It seems people keep looking at this as a nerf to dungeons...and that's wrong.

It's a buff to pugging. If you want to play the dungeons without the buff, get guildies to go with you. You have the option of doing them "hardcore rawr way" or pugging it. It's not like you absolutely have to do the dungeons with a 15% buff.

The buff is to ease the effect of pugging. So many times I'm in a pug that simply refuses to talk...ever...except for the optional "r?" before a boss.

What Blizzard is trying to do is keep the difficulty of dungeons on a level playing surface when comparing 5-man guildy runs with 5-man pug runs. It's a simple balancing technique. Nothing more.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:06 pm

Flipthebird wrote:EDIT*** I only read first two pages before I posted this...so...

It seems people keep looking at this as a nerf to dungeons...and that's wrong.

It's a buff to pugging. If you want to play the dungeons without the buff, get guildies to go with you. You have the option of doing them "hardcore rawr way" or pugging it. It's not like you absolutely have to do the dungeons with a 15% buff.

The buff is to ease the effect of pugging. So many times I'm in a pug that simply refuses to talk...ever...except for the optional "r?" before a boss.

What Blizzard is trying to do is keep the difficulty of dungeons on a level playing surface when comparing 5-man guildy runs with 5-man pug runs. It's a simple balancing technique. Nothing more.

I don't think most people have an issue with the buff... from what I've been reading in here, people are wondering if a 15% buff is really going to make any significant difference for PuGs full of mouth-breathers in today's heroic environment.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Njall » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:56 am

Well, since the buff, I haven't had a pug blow up on me as long as I was tanking. Though in a few cases, when I am dps, it seems to reward tanks who don't bother marking and just pull like WoLK Heroics.

...until we wipe and he dc's because the "dps is fail."
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:14 am

The buff DOES make a difference. Due to other *cough* changes I do my randoms hit and exp -capped. Post-buff that's effectively 100% extra dps from me unless my healer is horribly geared. 15 + 15 + 15 percent extra damage from poor dps still amounts to half a poor dps extra. Add my extra damage and we have a full poor dps extra in the instance.

That is enough to kill trash in a timely fashion, and usually enough to get an iffy boss dead as well. Now, to be perfectly honest, only a small minority of true random LFD runs will sit you with three poor dps.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Archeth » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:33 am

I'm in general all for that buff because I think Blizzard has gone overboard with "back to vanilla/TBC" ideas and heroic difficulty (while not providing enough challenge - and rewards for that matter - in normals), but together with the item level inflation and lots of people just running heroics for their daily 70 valor points, it's starting to be hard on new guys, especially healers.

On the one hand you'll have groups where the tank is by far the lowest DPS at 10k on a boss or something, and it doesn't really matter because things die so fast. On the other hand you'll get all the DPS/tanks who think avoiding damage or CC doesn't matter anymore, amirite, and even with +15% healing a new guy/alt with the minimum required item level or even one in the lower 330s is going to have a hell of a time healing 3-4 group members each "tanking" mobs and standing in fires. Especially if those DPS players just AoE or randomly attack everything, so damage stays high until all mobs die within 10 seconds.

However it has massively improved the quality of pugging. When I started with my warlock 2/3 of all heroics were aborted before or at the first boss because tanks were bad, healers couldn't keep up or DDs kept getting themselves killed constantly. At least I can finish almost all of them now, and even my priest alt completes them in a timely manner, despite of having to drink almost every pull >2 mobs.
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