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CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:27 pm

Yeah, cant believe they simply deleted it.

That was a lot of wasted research.

At least I know now they didn't read any of it.

Anyway, Already another Thread to beg for an answer.. Side note: No idea if it helps, but "Like" the first post ? see if we can get it to show on the main page? :-p


I think the things that bother me the most:
1) I liked how paladins played in WotlK, and pre-.6 -- It was fairly predictable, reliable, muscle memory allowed me to mostly do the rotation right while focusing on other tank- or leader- related actions
2) I don't understand the change -- conflicting statements from past and now...
3) (partly with 1) I'm not sure if i like the new system enough :-/ I don't like that I have to lower my avoidance if i want a stable rotation.. I was fine with weak threat but predictable spell use..
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Hrobertgar » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:47 am

I just finished raiding on my tank, and wow, I have a major issue with hopo fail procs despite having hit and expertise rating.

I had 6% hit, 24 expertise, and dide heroic deadmines, and had hopo fails, sometimes a couple in a row. Afterwards I improved to 7% hit and 26 expertise and did BwD, and had more hopo fails against 85-elite trash. I mean this is painfull, and I have the rating.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:03 am

with 7%/26 exp, you should not see noticeable HoPo issues on level 85 trash... 0% miss chance, 0% parry/dodge chance.... (other then maybe a base 1% miss chance? if that's still around)
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby mclem » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:17 am

Out of interest, how much threat do we lose if we do *nothing* for this? Mindlessly continue with 939, hitting SotR after every third CS, whether or not they actually hit?

I'm wondering if we're actually suffering by virtue of *trying* to be good tanks, by trying to pay attention to misses and delay SotR until we get a 3-stack. I know a 2-stack is significantly weaker, but at some point presumably you want to make certain you get some damage on the mob.

It's not quite perfect, but I wonder if the best solution for the snap threat issues is to make CS always cause *threat*, whether or not it hits. Slightly bizarre, but I'm wondering if the main part of the issue is the fact that we lose *both* the threat of the CS *and* the resulting SotR is delayed.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Thorsschmatt » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:45 am

Since i do not have the time right now to check it out myself ingame, does a missed CS refund the mana it costs? So far i never cared, but with mire Cons and HW casts needed as fillers, it could suddenly become an issue. And since they insist the change was made to keep the behaviour of CS in line with the abilities of other classes, the logical consequence would be to make it refund mana aswell.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:59 am

Thorsschmatt wrote:Since i do not have the time right now to check it out myself ingame, does a missed CS refund the mana it costs? So far i never cared, but with mire Cons and HW casts needed as fillers, it could suddenly become an issue. And since they insist the change was made to keep the behaviour of CS in line with the abilities of other classes, the logical consequence would be to make it refund mana aswell.


Crusader strike:
No mana refund on Parry or miss, I Have not seen a dodge yet, but the other 2 should cover that

Hammer of the Righteous:
Looks the same for HotR as well, no refund on parry or dodge
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:49 am

Mana can def. become an issue now, especially if you're aoe tanking.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:26 am

mclem wrote:Out of interest, how much threat do we lose if we do *nothing* for this? Mindlessly continue with 939, hitting SotR after every third CS, whether or not they actually hit?


If you just hit SotR every 9 seconds, you'd be doing roughly
Code: Select all
binopdf(0,3,0.25)*1+binopdf(1,3,0.25)*0.5+binopdf(2,3,0.25)*1/6 =  0.6563

or 66% the damage that SotR used to do. That's not a 33% reduction to all threat though, just to the SotR portion of your threat.

In any event, 2-hopo SotRs are never going to be efficient; Even comparing SotR>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW to SotR>CS>J>AS>Cons>SotR2>HW, where you only cast SotR2 (2-hopo SotR) if there's no higher-damage spell available, the latter is a net DPS loss.

Doxa wrote:Mana can def. become an issue now, especially if you're aoe tanking.

Yes, I've noticed this as well. Liberal use of Cons/HW can cause problems. We're casting fewer "free" spells (SotR), and fewer Judgements (because of SotR pushback, i.e. CS-J-CS-AS-CS(miss)-Cons-CS-SotR-). So mana is a lot tighter. We may have to be more conservative with Cons/HW as filler. At high vengeance, HW is terrible DPM, so that would probably be the one to drop in raids.

Cleared BoT, ToFW, and a chunk of BWD (Mag/Omni/hChim) last night without changing anything (again, 1% hit, 3 expertise from human racial, SoI/WoG/HotR glyphs). Other than rotational adjustments, there really wasn't much discernable difference. Threat is still stupidly high, even with SoI. Mana can be an issue with SoT, but if you suppress your kneejerk impulse to use Cons and HW as filler, it's fine. I already had my PowerAuras setup hiding Consecration when I'm below ~50% mana, I may just raise that that threshold a bit.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:28 am

Sur-Pseudo wrote:with 7%/26 exp, you should not see noticeable HoPo issues on level 85 trash... 0% miss chance, 0% parry/dodge chance.... (other then maybe a base 1% miss chance? if that's still around)

There's no base miss chance. If you have 8% hit, you'll won't miss the boss (ignoring temporary -hit or +avoidance boss mechanics, of course).
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:04 pm

Yeah that 1% base miss chance spells had in Classic, BC was sometimes popping up annoyingly often.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Fetzie » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:53 am

Dantriges wrote:Yeah that 1% base miss chance spells had in Classic, BC was sometimes popping up annoyingly often.


heh, I remember playing my warlock at lootreaver in TK back in the day. I see my first soul shatter after ~50 seconds miss, so throttle down a bit. when I next came to cast soul shatter I didn't see the miss. there was no threat API back then and omen didn't recognise SS misses. 10 seconds later the boss came to say hello. Dying: the only reliable way to reset your threat :P
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:13 pm

I do not understand why I had a hopo fail issue, just that I had one.

I had some irritating fails tanking V&T, but they are bosses with a residual 7.5% avoidance. Later on, in BWD, I noticed similar minor fails when using CS against both Magmaw and Omni. My complaint is not really those, it is irritating (especially 2 fails in a row), but I can understand for a boss target.

However, I noticed it again against the 85-elite trash in Atramedes' room. The other tank and I each picked up 2 trash, burned 1 of mine first, and his 2 next before coming back for my last one. After my first trash was dead I switched from HotR to CS, and prompty started to notice CS global cooldowns being used without generating hopo. That is my issue, that how can I fail against a trash for which I am hit & exp capped?.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Destruktive » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:51 pm

This looks like a dead topic now, I guess most people don't really care too much about it now.
/sadface
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby d503 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:27 pm

Destruktive wrote:This looks like a dead topic now, I guess most people don't really care too much about it now.
/sadface


Not much to say about it. Pre-4.0.6, we ignored two stats because they didn't impact our performance from a threat perspective, and we had a predictable rotation because of unhindered HoPo generation.

Post-4.0.6 we still don't have to worry about our performance from a threat perspective, and our rotation is less predictable because of missed opportunities to generate HoPo.

Some people choose to exacerbate the issue by extending the effects to things like survivability by talking about WoG frequency/usage and Holy Shield uptime, but the net-net is that this is not much of an impact to our everyday tanking other than being annoying.

I basically stopped reading when the Maintankadin allstars stopped posting. If Theck's not freaked, running sims, and analyzing parses because of this, there can't be that big an impact.

Just my 2c, I'm sure others are much more...excited about this change.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vexryn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:06 am

Well, having finished a full week's clearing of content, some follow-up thoughts...

- Threat is still a total non-issue, even in my ultra-low hit/expertise set, once we're 30+ seconds into a fight and I've got my Vengeance.

- The "rotation" doesn't really feel like a rotation anymore. It just feels like CS-filler that continues forever. Every 9-15 seconds I fill with a 3 holy power finisher, if I happen to have 3 holy power. Otherwise I fill with... all my other 9-15 second cooldowns, like judgment, AS, HW, etc. And sometimes there are gaps when everything is off cooldown.

- I have to be a little more mana aware. Using a lot more Consecrate and Holy Wrath now, because of all the misses extending the rotation cycle. On bosses this has still generally been manageable, but it's definitely a bit more annoying. Sometimes I choose not to hit a filler after a string of CS misses because I'm afraid I'll be mana-starved.

- I've adjusted my rotation slightly by pushing my judgment back. I used to keep judgment at the front of my rotation, just to be certain I was putting up my chance for Sacred Duty to proc. Now with a string of misses, Sacred Duty can fall off before I use it! So whereas before my rotation was basically CS-J-CS-filler-CS-finisher, now I'm running CS-filler-CS-J-CS-finisher, so it's more likely that the judgment comes within reasonable proximity to the finisher itself. If the middle CS misses and extends my rotation cycle, I try to use other fillers as available so my judgment tends to still only get used after 2 holy power. I try to still judge at least every 12 seconds, though (and I'll certainly still judge if nothing else is off cooldown), or I find the aforementioned mana problems just get worse.


I've started a fresh thread on the Blizzard forums to put forth at least my complaint that this no longer feels like a "rotation" and has lost all rhythm, and that I think it's ridiculous that hit/expertise are still irrelevant for threat, but "useful" just to make the rotation more stable (which is a lousy implementation of hit/expertise imo). Feel free to add to it if you are so inclined. :)
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... 254?page=1
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