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Stupidity at its finest

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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:45 pm

Brekkie wrote:It would be no different than if the Russians invaded Alaska, the U.S. military fought a long, costly, and brutal war to protect it, only for Sarah Palin to declare on behalf of the Alaskans that Alaska was a perfectly self-sufficient state (something not true for Alaska, nor for colonial America), owed nothing to the U.S., and ought rightly to break away and be independent on the sole basis that it is isolated from the greater U.S. geographically, by and large immigration from the lower 48 has stopped, and it lacks the representation in the congressional body to be able to win every single vote it cares about, and is often mandated by the collective government to concede to laws that are for the greater good but not in the direct interests of Alaska.


..and its our oil anyway. Thanks for developing it for us but now you need to get the hell out. This attitude is considered intolerable in the third world countries or allies exhibiting it. :lol:
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:17 pm

Njall wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I don't buy that for a second, unless it's operating around the margins, which is almost certainly the case. In which case you'd find similar variances even within the US. I deal with Canadians quite frequently, hell I'm even in a "Canadian" guild.


I fear you are incorrect. And, Fire and Ice puts it out pretty nicely - Environonics is a very reputable social research institute. I don't know why it is, but conservative leaning Americans always seem to think that there is no difference between Canadians and Americans no matter what evidence is presented. The attitude is usually, "Canada is just like the US but just not as good" and is pretty much guaranteed to piss off almost any Canadian and have a few labels attached.

I'm quite sure that I'm not, embarrassingly close minded stereotypes aside. Perhaps we are looking at different things, but I think one of the biggest and most obvious considerations is media consumed, and we are so incredibly similar there it's not funny.

We watch much of the same TV shows, movies, networks, even much of the same news and listen to the same music. We shop at many of the same stores (not physically obviously), use many of the same household goods and eat many of the same foods. Hell we share 3 of the most lucrative professional sports leagues in the world. We even use very similar construction methods and city plans. Of course we also have relatively open borders and speak the same primary language. We probably have more in common culturally than any other country pair, especially considering our size. I could have a long conversation with almost any Canadian and not realize they are Canadian and vice versa.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Brekkie » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:53 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Brekkie wrote:I think a more accurate analogy would be if the parents were paying for the teenager to attend college, but he was refusing to go to class because he'd much rather party and have fun on his parents dime. Then the parents state that since he failed all these classes, he needs to start paying his tuition himself, and the kid freaks out.

Talking about how self-sufficient the colonies were, how Britain rules them in name only, neglects how the colonies were quite happy to accept salvation from French occupation and subjugation merely a couple years before.

It would be no different than if the Russians invaded Alaska, the U.S. military fought a long, costly, and brutal war to protect it, only for Sarah Palin to declare on behalf of the Alaskans that Alaska was a perfectly self-sufficient state (something not true for Alaska, nor for colonial America), owed nothing to the U.S., and ought rightly to break away and be independent on the sole basis that it is isolated from the greater U.S. geographically, by and large immigration from the lower 48 has stopped, and it lacks the representation in the congressional body to be able to win every single vote it cares about, and is often mandated by the collective government to concede to laws that are for the greater good but not in the direct interests of Alaska.

Well parents paying for college works, but not much of the rest. England benefited from their relationship through trade monopolies for some time.

There wouldn't be a situation currently where congress denied Alaska representation, nor conspired against its people. Every district lacked the votes to solely carry an issue (pretty much) just as today, but if districts were treated honorably and with respect, then the issue gets voted for on the issue's merits, not that of the district. Colonial america would not have had such respect.

When I say Britain ruled them in name only (which isn't really what I said but close enough), I mean that the colonies willfully accepted the power of the crown, no force had been necessary to rule. That stopped though at taxation, because even by parliamentary standards of the day, that violated the Rights of Englishmen, which brings us full circle to the "rabble rousing."


You use very strong language regarding the supposed abuses of the crown. From my own point of view as an American who was educated primarily in the British school system, it's always been very interesting for me to compare the rhetoric of both sides and attempt to find an intellectually honest personal interpretation.
My own views are that opinions, such as you stated above, greatly exaggerate:
-the attitude Parliament took towards the colonies
(their people were viewed a Englishmen. Slightly wild country bumpkins who lacked refinement of polite society, but still Englishmen.)
-the intent behind their actions
(the colonies greatly benefited from the attention given it by it's mother country, not merely in protection militarily, but extremely favorable trade, administrative, and management policies which gave colonists more freedoms, more opportunities, more economic favor, and more say in their own affairs than even Englishmen living in Britain its self enjoyed. It was viewed, in my opinion reasonably, that the colonies should shoulder a bit more of the collective burden in exchange for all it's benefits. A man living in England paid a massive proportion of his income in taxes, and it was hard times for the middle class there, economically. The colonists, on the other hand, paid the equivalent of what would today be $1 per YEAR in taxes, even at the height of taxation, and that in built-in fees to things they already purchased. They had a great deal of self-autonomy of affairs as well, far more than other colonies.)
-the impact of a small number of individual colonists in influencing group opinion to fit their own ends through political rhetoric

I think you underestimate the importance of "rabble rousing", not just in colonial times, but even TODAY!
The majority of a population does not care enough about issues to do proper research in order to form educated opinions. There simply are too many issues to research in the complex world around you. So you base your positions on most things based on small snippets of easily digestible information; i.e. One-Liners/Sound-Bytes. That is why corporate talking-head media today is so successful.
"Taxation without representation" is a compelling line, because:
A)nobody likes to have less money
B)it couldn't backfire because they knew they would refuse to accept any deal of special representation in parliament,
C)it misrepresented the way British government functioned but made sense within the framework of the way the local, colonial small-scale authorities functioned, which people were familiar with, thus applying the wrong context to a complex issue in a way that made the British authority seem bad.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:11 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I could have a long conversation with almost any Canadian and not realize they are Canadian and vice versa.


Yet if you call a Canadian an American they really don't like that. :P
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:13 pm

Brekkie wrote:You use very strong language regarding the supposed abuses of the crown. From my own point of view as an American who was educated primarily in the British school system, it's always been very interesting for me to compare the rhetoric of both sides and attempt to find an intellectually honest personal interpretation.
My own views are that opinions, such as you stated above, greatly exaggerate:
-the attitude Parliament took towards the colonies
(their people were viewed a Englishmen. Slightly wild country bumpkins who lacked refinement of polite society, but still Englishmen.)
-the intent behind their actions
(the colonies greatly benefited from the attention given it by it's mother country, not merely in protection militarily, but extremely favorable trade, administrative, and management policies which gave colonists more freedoms, more opportunities, more economic favor, and more say in their own affairs than even Englishmen living in Britain its self enjoyed. It was viewed, in my opinion reasonably, that the colonies should shoulder a bit more of the collective burden in exchange for all it's benefits. A man living in England paid a massive proportion of his income in taxes, and it was hard times for the middle class there, economically. The colonists, on the other hand, paid the equivalent of what would today be $1 per YEAR in taxes, even at the height of taxation, and that in built-in fees to things they already purchased. They had a great deal of self-autonomy of affairs as well, far more than other colonies.)
-the impact of a small number of individual colonists in influencing group opinion to fit their own ends through political rhetoric

I think you underestimate the importance of "rabble rousing", not just in colonial times, but even TODAY!
The majority of a population does not care enough about issues to do proper research in order to form educated opinions. There simply are too many issues to research in the complex world around you. So you base your positions on most things based on small snippets of easily digestible information; i.e. One-Liners/Sound-Bytes. That is why corporate talking-head media today is so successful.
"Taxation without representation" is a compelling line, because:
A)nobody likes to have less money
B)it couldn't backfire because they knew they would refuse to accept any deal of special representation in parliament,
C)it misrepresented the way British government functioned but made sense within the framework of the way the local, colonial small-scale authorities functioned, which people were familiar with, thus applying the wrong context to a complex issue in a way that made the British authority seem bad.

Well I'll start with the language, because I think you are adding meaning that simply isn't there:

1. denied
This is hardly in doubt, it's quite clear that the colonists were repeatedly denied representation. It was part and parcel to the parliamentary system of the time.

2. conspired against its people & Colonial america would not have had such respect.
Well this was technically used in a fictitious comparison to Alaska and it's obviously speculation considering England would have had to get past number 1 before these could even be applicable. That said, I don't think it is a stretch at all, to speculate (as the colonists did) that any representation granted in the 12th hour could not be taken seriously. Given the class system and borough issues already in place, it's hard to imagine the colonists receiving not only representation, but that that representation was treated equally to other districts. It's moot though in the grand scheme of things, because they were given no representation at all.

3. (their people were viewed a Englishmen. Slightly wild country bumpkins who lacked refinement of polite society, but still Englishmen.)
You are misunderstanding, I'm not talking about comrades I'm talking about the legal status. Because of number 1, the colonists believed that by definition of the parliamentary system of the time, they were not. Taxation without representation was viewed legally as a violation of their Rights as Englishman as they were being treated unlike the English in England but similarly to other colonial settlements who were definitely not Englishman.

Now, to the rest. Of course the colonists received tons of benefits from the crown throughout the centuries, and of course the crown received its benefits too. The crown had a monopoly on trade to the colonies, which started to breakdown towards the end as smuggling picked up as a result of escalation, but it wasn't always to the colonists' beneft.

I said earlier there was tit for tat on both sides and that's true, the Boston Massacre is a pretty good example. I never said that England was bad or evil or that the colonists were good, but there were significant issues. England tried to tax the colonists, after an outcry they repealed those taxes and tried again with indirect taxes and punishments, after those received a similarly cool reception they tried the Tea Tax, but they had removed an upstream tariff making the tea actually cheaper (so clearly money wasn't the issue as you claim). The point of this, of course, was not revenue but to show the colonists that England did indeed have the authority to levy taxes without representation, if it so chose. That lead to the Boston Tea Party and then the Intolerable Acts, escalation after escalation.

Was England being unreasonable for taxing the colonists, no probably not. But ruling over their own people and taxing them without granting them an appropriate voice was unconscionable even in England at the time. Yet it was a standard the crown tried to apply to the colonists repeatedly, followed by punishments for the backlash. On the flip side, it was of course right and proper for the colonists to choose a representative government, as any people should be able to do.

Rabble rousing is relatively short lived (even TODAY), the revolution by contrast took decades to build, and as things escalated the relationship simply became untenable. These were not people whipped into a frenzy by some political stumping.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Skwigelf » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:48 am

masterpoobaa wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I could have a long conversation with almost any Canadian and not realize they are Canadian and vice versa.


Yet if you call a Canadian an American they really don't like that. :P


Unless, of course, they're super smrt like me and realize that "American" means anyone from the Super-continent of America(North America + South America).

The U.S.A. is the United States OF America. Not America itself. Their President isn't the American President. Their flag isn't the American flag. Nor is their Dollar the American Dollar.

So yes, I'm American. Just like people from Brazil, Cuba, Argentina, Mexico, Panama, Chile, and any other country in this wonderful Super-continent.

In before angry "Americans".

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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Njall » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:00 am

masterpoobaa wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I could have a long conversation with almost any Canadian and not realize they are Canadian and vice versa.


Yet if you call a Canadian an American they really don't like that. :P


Saw a guy get knifed in a bar over it when I was working up North. Bunch of hunters up from the US were being obnoxious and doing the "you guys are just like us but not as good" thing. The locals, mostly lumberjacks and miners, didn't take too well to it. Things went downhill from there. We got the heck out.

That said, I deeply miss working as a field geologist in the gold belt around Kirkland Lake. The money was good and the locals were very friendly indeed. They always hope that exploration finds something good enough to mine. Jobs and all that.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:04 am

firstamendme wrote:I've always looked at it that living in Canada is like living in the drafty, frozen, loft apartment above a really awesome party.

Not to worry, none of us feel like that. Not even remotely.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Brekkie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:08 am

Njall wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I could have a long conversation with almost any Canadian and not realize they are Canadian and vice versa.


Yet if you call a Canadian an American they really don't like that. :P


Saw a guy get knifed in a bar over it when I was working up North. Bunch of hunters up from the US were being obnoxious and doing the "you guys are just like us but not as good" thing. The locals, mostly lumberjacks and miners, didn't take too well to it. Things went downhill from there. We got the heck out.

That said, I deeply miss working as a field geologist in the gold belt around Kirkland Lake. The money was good and the locals were very friendly indeed. They always hope that exploration finds something good enough to mine. Jobs and all that.


Is there anything you HAVEN'T done Njall?
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Njall » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:14 am

Brekkie wrote:Is there anything you HAVEN'T done Njall?


Yes, sadly. That date with the twins never materialized as they were only teasing. But my grandfather said to me when I was a boy "Live an interesting life" and I've tried hard to do that. And my sister does a lot more cool stuff than I do but she has the time and money to do so. She just got back from hiking on Mt. Kilimanjaro last month. She went to Machu Pichu last year. Grr. And my brother has been spending a lot of time in China on assignment and makes time to visit places like the Forbidden City and the Great Wall. Double grr! Mom and Dad just got back from an Alaska cruise to see the glaciers while we still have them.

A signal difference I find between Americans and Canadians is the answer to "What do you do?" Someone from the US will most likely tell you about his job. A Canadian will mostly likely tell you about their hobbies."
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby cerwillis » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:17 am

This thread title is accurate.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:25 am

Nikachelle wrote:
firstamendme wrote:I've always looked at it that living in Canada is like living in the drafty, frozen, loft apartment above a really awesome party.

Not to worry, none of us feel like that. Not even remotely.

I'm surprised you guys don't have back problems, what with that gigantic chip you all carry around. :lol:
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby katraya » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:59 am

Skwigelf wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I could have a long conversation with almost any Canadian and not realize they are Canadian and vice versa.


Yet if you call a Canadian an American they really don't like that. :P


Unless, of course, they're super smrt like me and realize that "American" means anyone from the Super-continent of America(North America + South America).

The U.S.A. is the United States OF America. Not America itself. Their President isn't the American President. Their flag isn't the American flag. Nor is their Dollar the American Dollar.




Pretty sure this has come up before but I had a history professor who was pushing for us to refer to ourselves as "United Statesers" :lol:
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Kelaan » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:46 am

Njall wrote:Bunch of hunters up from the US were being obnoxious and doing the "you guys are just like us but not as good" thing. The locals, mostly lumberjacks and miners, didn't take too well to it.


Ironically, I have a hard time conceptualizing the degree to which Canadians are different from me. That said, I can't imagine deliberately insulting someone by saying they were just like Americans, but worse. That's pretty low. :D
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:54 am

Kelaan wrote:
Njall wrote:Bunch of hunters up from the US were being obnoxious and doing the "you guys are just like us but not as good" thing. The locals, mostly lumberjacks and miners, didn't take too well to it.


Ironically, I have a hard time conceptualizing the degree to which Canadians are different from me. That said, I can't imagine deliberately insulting someone by saying they were just like Americans, but worse. That's pretty low. :D

And doing it in a bar in the country of the people you are trying to insult...very much in the spirit of this thread's title.
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