Stupidity at its finest

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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby warden » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:00 pm

On a side note, I want to applaud Njall, Fridmarr and the other posters above for creating a civil, informed dicussion about something that ties into politics and the US/Canada for an entire page in the Asylum (seriously, no sarcasm intended). It is rare that a thread survives that long in this forum without degenerating into mudslinging and pro/anti american sentiment or conservative/liberal hate. This has actually been fun to read and watch develop.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:02 pm

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I wouldn't have bet on it working out that way, myself. It's been a slice. And curling got mentioned. Curling. Johanathan Coulton had some things to say about curling, I think. Yes. Yes, he did.

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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:05 pm

Njall wrote:Significant difference between the two Broadband penetration in Canada is far more pervasive. I admit, it has gotten to the point where I don't consider having dialup to be internet use these days.

From the second link you cited:
In 2000, only 12.1% of all Canadian households had a broadband connection. In 2004, it is expected that the penetration rate will increase to 42.6%. The US, in contrast, is not expected to achieve a comparable penetration until 2006. The current penetration rate in the US is only 29.1%. By 2006 it is expected to reach 41.0%.

For 2003 Canada ranked fourth worldwide in terms of broadband households as a percentage of total households. The US held the tenth position with a 22.5%.

Sorry I should have linked the summary page which was broadband based as of 2007. US was 21.9% Canada was 23.7% though that's a different measurement than access, but it also represents about 9X more people using broadband in the US than Canada.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/dsl.htm

I have considerable doubts though that only 35% of the US has broadband access, considering all major cities likely have near 100% access. Hell I'm from a small half Amish town in central PA and they've had broadband for a dozen years or so.

Broadband is a sticky wicket anyhow when you also have 3G and soon 4G with coverages at 95%+. Ars Technica did some analysis a few years ago after some comments from Verizon that took another look at US broadband penetration and caused some serious revisions in previous metrics, much to the chagrin of the EU. Realistically, it just meant that a lot of this data is fairly inaccurate with a whole lot of creative twisting going on.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:21 pm

Njall wrote:
Lopan.jpg


I wouldn't have bet on it working out that way, myself. It's been a slice. And curling got mentioned. Curling. Johanathan Coulton had some things to say about curling, I think. Yes. Yes, he did.

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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Brekkie » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:00 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Rachmaninoff wrote:Interesting. So if it was the manufactures who were getting taxed then how did they rally the people to revolt? I'm assuming raising the cost of XYZ and blaming it on the taxes which was implemented from Parliament?

Note that Njall said, "at the time of the revolution". England had tried various tax schemes some more direct than others.

It wasn't completely about taxes, and certainly not the cost of the taxes. Heck the Tea Tax actually lowered the cost of tea because England lifted inbound tariffs when the tea was re-exported to the colonies. At this point it wasn't just about tax revenue from England's perspective either, they wanted to send a message to let the colonies know that they were a taxing authority whether the colonists liked it or not. The colonists weren't opposed to the actual cost of the tea (I'm sure they enjoyed the fact that it was cheaper), as much as they were opposed to being taxed by a government in which they had no say.


The whole "Taxation without representation" thing was just a rabble-rousing political slogan. It fired up the unwashed masses, but wasn't really a motivating factor. The founding fathers did not WANT representation.

In the period before lexington and concord, Ben Franklin was sent as an official envoy to Parliament, and was given SPECIFIC instructions to REFUSE any deal the colonies were offered where they would be given seats in Parliament. They realized that in such a deal, the colonial representatives would simply be out-voted on any issue affecting the colonies anyway.


It was clear from the very beginning that the colonies were NOT looking for, or would ever accept, representation in British Government. They wanted a clear break.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:33 pm

Brekkie wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Rachmaninoff wrote:Interesting. So if it was the manufactures who were getting taxed then how did they rally the people to revolt? I'm assuming raising the cost of XYZ and blaming it on the taxes which was implemented from Parliament?

Note that Njall said, "at the time of the revolution". England had tried various tax schemes some more direct than others.

It wasn't completely about taxes, and certainly not the cost of the taxes. Heck the Tea Tax actually lowered the cost of tea because England lifted inbound tariffs when the tea was re-exported to the colonies. At this point it wasn't just about tax revenue from England's perspective either, they wanted to send a message to let the colonies know that they were a taxing authority whether the colonists liked it or not. The colonists weren't opposed to the actual cost of the tea (I'm sure they enjoyed the fact that it was cheaper), as much as they were opposed to being taxed by a government in which they had no say.


The whole "Taxation without representation" thing was just a rabble-rousing political slogan. It fired up the unwashed masses, but wasn't really a motivating factor. The founding fathers did not WANT representation.

In the period before lexington and concord, Ben Franklin was sent as an official envoy to Parliament, and was given SPECIFIC instructions to REFUSE any deal the colonies were offered where they would be given seats in Parliament. They realized that in such a deal, the colonial representatives would simply be out-voted on any issue affecting the colonies anyway.


It was clear from the very beginning that the colonies were NOT looking for, or would ever accept, representation in British Government. They wanted a clear break.

That's how such movements work, but calling it rabble rousing is incredibly misleading. People don't buy shit just because a politician says it, it worked because A. It Was True and B. Is Bad Form.

The colonies had grown up enough that they were not keen on being ruled from afar by a government not particularly concerned with them. However, they were most certainly willing to continue to be ruled by England by the strength of ink alone, as they had been for decades. However, as the relationship started to strain and the colonies were maturing conditions kept escalating.

By the time Franklin was asked to go to parliament the events we are talking about in this thread had already happened, and you are about 20 years into that escalation. Of course by that time, there wasn't much that could be done to alter the course.


EDIT: Think of it like the 20 year old who returns home from vocational school to live in his parents basement. Then he gets a job certainly paying enough to live on his own, but why bother moving out? He's got a good gig, an outside entrance for privacy, home cooked meals, loving family etc etc and he's willing to live within the reasonable rules of his parent's home. But them mom and dad ask for rent, and when he refuses his parents start attempting to lock things down, curfews, rules about friends coming over etc... At this point, the relationship is just no longer compatible even if the parents were to relent, it's just time to move on. That's where events were when Franklin was negotiating in England
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby mew » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:58 pm

I lol'd at the Jersey Shore pun AND THEN YOU GUYS MADE THIS THREAD BORING WAY TO GO
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:00 pm

mew wrote:I lol'd at the Jersey Shore pun AND THEN YOU GUYS MADE THIS THREAD BORING WAY TO GO

My bad, you are free to revive it though. This digression has likely (and hopefully) run its course.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:05 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Gotta Keep The Canadians Down!


Yeah, how's that working out for you guys?

Man, I haven't curled in years - way too long since I've thrown a rock on the ice. Was on the high-school curling team too.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Brekkie » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:07 pm

I think a more accurate analogy would be if the parents were paying for the teenager to attend college, but he was refusing to go to class because he'd much rather party and have fun on his parents dime. Then the parents state that since he failed all these classes, he needs to start paying his tuition himself, and the kid freaks out.

Talking about how self-sufficient the colonies were, how Britain rules them in name only, neglects how the colonies were quite happy to accept salvation from French occupation and subjugation merely a couple years before.

It would be no different than if the Russians invaded Alaska, the U.S. military fought a long, costly, and brutal war to protect it, only for Sarah Palin to declare on behalf of the Alaskans that Alaska was a perfectly self-sufficient state (something not true for Alaska, nor for colonial America), owed nothing to the U.S., and ought rightly to break away and be independent on the sole basis that it is isolated from the greater U.S. geographically, by and large immigration from the lower 48 has stopped, and it lacks the representation in the congressional body to be able to win every single vote it cares about, and is often mandated by the collective government to concede to laws that are for the greater good but not in the direct interests of Alaska.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:10 pm

Njall wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Gotta Keep The Canadians Down!


Yeah, how's that working out for you guys?

Man, I haven't curled in years - way too long since I've thrown a rock on the ice. Was on the high-school curling team too.

You've been assimilated. I mean outside some accents, culturally there is very little difference.

I curl on my Android phone and I'm fucking awesome.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:19 pm

Brekkie wrote:I think a more accurate analogy would be if the parents were paying for the teenager to attend college, but he was refusing to go to class because he'd much rather party and have fun on his parents dime. Then the parents state that since he failed all these classes, he needs to start paying his tuition himself, and the kid freaks out.

Talking about how self-sufficient the colonies were, how Britain rules them in name only, neglects how the colonies were quite happy to accept salvation from French occupation and subjugation merely a couple years before.

It would be no different than if the Russians invaded Alaska, the U.S. military fought a long, costly, and brutal war to protect it, only for Sarah Palin to declare on behalf of the Alaskans that Alaska was a perfectly self-sufficient state (something not true for Alaska, nor for colonial America), owed nothing to the U.S., and ought rightly to break away and be independent on the sole basis that it is isolated from the greater U.S. geographically, by and large immigration from the lower 48 has stopped, and it lacks the representation in the congressional body to be able to win every single vote it cares about, and is often mandated by the collective government to concede to laws that are for the greater good but not in the direct interests of Alaska.

Well parents paying for college works, but not much of the rest. England benefited from their relationship through trade monopolies for some time.

There wouldn't be a situation currently where congress denied Alaska representation, nor conspired against its people. Every district lacked the votes to solely carry an issue (pretty much) just as today, but if districts were treated honorably and with respect, then the issue gets voted for on the issue's merits, not that of the district. Colonial america would not have had such respect.

When I say Britain ruled them in name only (which isn't really what I said but close enough), I mean that the colonies willfully accepted the power of the crown, no force had been necessary to rule. That stopped though at taxation, because even by parliamentary standards of the day, that violated the Rights of Englishmen, which brings us full circle to the "rabble rousing."
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:26 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Njall wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Gotta Keep The Canadians Down!


Yeah, how's that working out for you guys?

Man, I haven't curled in years - way too long since I've thrown a rock on the ice. Was on the high-school curling team too.

You've been assimilated. I mean outside some accents, culturally there is very little difference.

I curl on my Android phone and I'm fucking awesome.


Actually, that's an interesting myth. I've directed your attention to "Fire and Ice: The United States and Canada and the Myth of Converging Values. Socially, Canadians are quite different in the values they hold important than their American counterparts. According to the study, the US differs far greatly amongst its population groups than Canadians do among themselves and none of the US groups map onto Canadians. They are, culturally, very different in values.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:29 pm

I don't buy that for a second, unless it's operating around the margins, which is almost certainly the case. In which case you'd find similar variances even within the US. I deal with Canadians quite frequently, hell I'm even in a "Canadian" guild.
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Re: Stupidity at its finest

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:41 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I don't buy that for a second, unless it's operating around the margins, which is almost certainly the case. In which case you'd find similar variances even within the US. I deal with Canadians quite frequently, hell I'm even in a "Canadian" guild.


I fear you are incorrect. And, Fire and Ice puts it out pretty nicely - Environonics is a very reputable social research institute. I don't know why it is, but conservative leaning Americans always seem to think that there is no difference between Canadians and Americans no matter what evidence is presented. The attitude is usually, "Canada is just like the US but just not as good" and is pretty much guaranteed to piss off almost any Canadian and have a few labels attached.

Anwyay, two of the key differences noted by the study were considered watershed differences and very illustrative of the differences in culrure and attitudes:

Question: The man should be master of the house.
US answer: Agree 65%
Canadian answer: Agree 25%

Question: It is not possible to be a moral person without religious beliefs.
US anser: Agree 70%
Canadian answer: Agree: 30%

Questions and explorations of nuances proceeded from there. Statistically, these are entirely different populations.
Last edited by Njall on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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