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Luck of the Draw buffed.

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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:49 pm

PsiVen wrote:my position is that something should be done about the folks that leave after one wipe, and the people that cause wipes to continue happening because they can't be bothered to learn.


What could be done, do you think?

PsiVen wrote:Obviously Blizzard can't come out and say "Well, this system isn't working because we underestimated how shitty you all are." The difficulty curve and LFD system should have been designed to be idiot-proof


Idiots are remarkably resourceful. But can you think of a better system that still keeps content accessible?

It's interesting to me that they're buffing rewards from normal dungeons. I think it's a decent option, but I don't think it's going to stop really horrible players from queuing for heroics anyway. People who are really bad at things tend to have inflated opinions about how good they are, and these people will feel fully justified shitting up your heroic while telling you how to play your class.

Vote kicking people does nothing to educate or improve the player being punted. I once had a pug DK who said they always got kicked after they wiped a few times on Dragha in GB and he had no idea why. He had no clue that he was supposed to kite the fire elemental, and no one ever bothered to tell him (or he didn't pay attention, which I think is just as likely). So we told him what to do and finished the dungeon dragging his 4k dps ass along (of course he spent most of the last fight dead since he didn't know what to do for Shadow Gale either, having never been that far).

What can any kind of system do to prevent this kind of player from gumming up the works? The only thing I can think of is to require a multiple-choice quiz on boss abilities be passed before you're allowed to queue for heroic versions. Heh.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby masterpoobaa » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:24 pm

How to make this system better?
More L85 normals to keep things interesting.
Better normal dungeon loot.
Bring back rep requirements for heroics.
Introduce better gear gating.
Not just a simple gear score count, but gems and enchants as well.

A check to see if any gear with sockets on it has some green gems equipped would be a good start.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby rodos » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:47 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:How to make this system better?
More L85 normals to keep things interesting.
Better normal dungeon loot.
Bring back rep requirements for heroics.
Introduce better gear gating.
Not just a simple gear score count, but gems and enchants as well.

A check to see if any gear with sockets on it has some green gems equipped would be a good start.

Blizzard have put in better rewards (more JP) for normals with this patch. That might help a bit.

I'd also like to see some shorter 5-mans. We've had one-boss raids in the past, I'd like to see 1-boss 5-mans. Take them off the daily random rotation so they're not free VP, and make the orb a 20-30% drop rather than guaranteed. That way if I have less than an hour to play I can still queue up for some dungeon fun without worrying that I won't be done in time.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Malthrax » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:22 am

fuzzygeek wrote:What can any kind of system do to prevent this kind of player from gumming up the works? The only thing I can think of is to require a multiple-choice quiz on boss abilities be passed before you're allowed to queue for heroic versions. Heh.

The requirement of having to successfully complete the normal version of dungeon_X a certain number of times before being allowed into the heroic would be a step in the right direction.

Yes, some heroic boss fights have additional mechanics not present in the normal version, however some help is better than no help.


Also, I think the drop-lists for normals & heroics are abysmally small. I'd like for them to take all the gear that can be purchased from the JP vendor and spread it out amongst the heroic 5-mans. Don't get rid of the JP vendor - just make the gear available as potential drops.

Lastly, all the iLvl333 quest drops need normal-mode dungeon drop analogues, for those of us on our 1198346th alt who don't want to quest-grind Twilight Highlands again.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Tev » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:08 am

I do agree that the gear available pre heroic needs to be buffed, or the gear requirements to successfully run heroics needs to be reduced. Then they need to impliment an individual rating system for players based on spec performance and make that information available.

Heroic requirements need to be based on a value outside ilevel, preferrably a value based on average stats for your spec, average DPS for DPS, Healing potential for healers, average damage reduced/avoided for tanking. This value should be a stored and adaptive value so as you improve, your score improves, but if your a terrible player, it will be reflected in your score.

The things I hope to avoid are cases like this one; I queued for a daily heroic, got a heroic I've tanked before and had no issues with. I start marking the first pull and *bam* hunters shot goes out and pulls the pack without the cc being marked. Mage is the only one who CCs, which is broken 4 times by the DK. I'm tanking a lot more than I should be, dps aren't focusing the skull and shits hitting the fan. Needless to say we wipe. What happens next... "Your not geared enough to tank this instance" from one of the DPS. Second DPS agrees (supprise from the same server/guild). OK, sure, I look at recount, 4k dps, 5k dps. The Mage who cast poly at least 4 times had 8.2k dps after he gave up trying to CC. I stated a few choice words and left advising the competent mage and healer to do the same, it wasn't so much of a rage quit as a /facepalm quit.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Nalyn » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:55 am

Malthrax wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:What can any kind of system do to prevent this kind of player from gumming up the works? The only thing I can think of is to require a multiple-choice quiz on boss abilities be passed before you're allowed to queue for heroic versions. Heh.

The requirement of having to successfully complete the normal version of dungeon_X a certain number of times before being allowed into the heroic would be a step in the right direction.


I don't think requiring people, or characters, to complete the normal version of the dungeon, before they do the heroic version is unreasonable, heck, you could make it just like raids, ie, if you're queueing with guildies/friends, and they've completed it, they can queue the whole group for the heroic. But queue by yourself? Ya, you're doing normals. This would help issues like the feral druid we got a week or two ago, that was in heroic halls of origin with us... and was in all ilevel 300 to 312 greens. He wasn't doing bad, he was avoiding stuff like he was supposed to, beating on the right mob, etc, however, his dps was in the toilet, and it was compounded by the fact that the random demo warlock we had was doing 1800 dps, I don't even know how that's possible!


Also, I think the drop-lists for normals & heroics are abysmally small. I'd like for them to take all the gear that can be purchased from the JP vendor and spread it out amongst the heroic 5-mans. Don't get rid of the JP vendor - just make the gear available as potential drops.

Lastly, all the iLvl333 quest drops need normal-mode dungeon drop analogues, for those of us on our 1198346th alt who don't want to quest-grind Twilight Highlands again.


I don't think this solves anything, just means we'll get another mail armor loot, when we're doing the dungeon with a pally tank, dps warrior, warlock, mage, and druid healer, or some such. I think them attaching JP rewards to the 85 normals is a very good idea, means your alt can gear up a bit faster, and means that doing the normal isn't 'wasted' time, as it's probably largely viewed now.

Just from stealing a couple BoE blues out of the guild bank on my shaman, and doing 2 or 3 random normals, she's gotten to barely short of the ilevel requirement for heroics, and has upgraded over half of her gear to 333 stuff. Normals aren't that bad, most groups are able to AE their way through them, just a note about how quickly you can actually get the gear to do heroics, rather than fighting/cheating the system, like most people seem to want to do.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Kraziness » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:24 am

This buff is completely un-needed. Before this I would loltank through heroics on my DK with a healer I knew well ignoring any sort of CC. Now sittig at almost 200k health in a 5 man pug, it's easy to loltank heroics w/o cc with a pugged undergeared healer. I'd say get rid of the buff or tone it down to a level where people need to learn the strats of the fights, because right now we are back to Wrath style heroics were it's AOE fest.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Tev » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:56 am

The buff is not needed if you group with people you know or outgear the content, but for PUGs at entry level gear, yeah it's needed.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Chunes » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:23 am

halabar wrote:Last night going into H TotT, we had FOUR tanks leave in succession before we even made the first pull, without a word from any of them...


I was healing last night on my priestalt and I shit you not, the EXACT same thing happened to me, only in blackrock whatever it's called. We finally got a tank that was all "Rah rah! had a fail tank? WELL I'M NO FAILURE LET'S DO THIS SHIT!", who proceeded to drop group after two wipes on the 2nd boss in there.

I think really, the problem is that tanks know they're in short supply. Don't get that random you want? fuck it, if you quit, get deserter and then requeue in 30 minutes your average queue time is STILL SHORTER than the average dps queue time.

To me that indicates there's a pretty huge problem with either the incentive structure for staying in a group, or the punishment system for bailing on a group. It would be easy to say "just up the deserter buff duration for people that drop!" but if you lock a tank out of a run for 2 hours for deserting, that's one less tank in the pool for 2 hours now.

I'd rather see a system that goes on the following criteria:

IF your queue pops and you accept
AND
IF you stay with the group until "final boss = dead" criteria is met

THEN
you get a "satchel of spoils" that basically acts like the "quest completion" dialog box does and allows you to choose one of a few different rewards.

Possible rewards could be:
1) A bag of gold to the tune of 100g
2) A selection of reputation tokens equal to an average, vanilla (i.e. no perks, just wearing a tabard only) reputation gain
3) An extra 70 JP

You could implement this similarly to how the heroic quest in Ahn Kahet used to work. If you have the debuff from the dead watcher on you when you finished the instance, you could interact with the quest completion object and get your reward. It would leave if you died, but in this case we'd only want the "You're eligible for bonus shit" buff to be removed if you bailed from the group or were kicked.

I have no idea how else to motivate an increase in the tank population other than to make the returns justify the time investment of pugging. I know I'm certainly not stoked to pug 4/5 spots if I'm the tank.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Tev » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:53 am

My experience has been that everyone has started blaming the failure of an instance on the tank, reguardless of cause. I think a lot of this stems for the switch of AoE everything of wrath to CC/smart pulls of Cata. I think people still hate the fact that Blizz put the brakes on instances in a major way. Instead of chain pulling, AoE fests, instances are back to almost a vanilla model, something a lot of current gamers are completely unfamiliar with.

Now from the standpoint of these people, when your forced to CC, the healer now runs out of mana, the first thing they start thinking is its the tanks fault, the tanks gear suck, has no skill, takes too much damage, etc.

The jump from Wrath to Cata was too sudden and implimented poorly imo, if this was their ultimate plan they should have adjusted Wrath instances to require CC long before Cata was released.

EDIT: forgot to make my point :p Basically I think a lot of tanks are tired of the entire instance riding on their shoulders so if they get a group they don't like, its less of a headache to drop and requeue in 30 min than to try to teach a bunch of impatient dps how to CC, how to assist, how to not stand in the fire, how to interrupt (less of an issue now admitedly), basically how to do anything other than trying to maximize their e-peen on the damage meters (which many still fail at anyway).
Last edited by Tev on Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:58 am

Tev wrote:My experience has been that everyone has started blaming the failure of an instance on the tank, reguardless of cause. I think a lot of this stems for the switch of AoE everything of wrath to CC/smart pulls of Cata. I think people still hate the fact that Blizz put the brakes on instances in a major way. Instead of chain pulling, AoE fests, instances are back to almost a vanilla model, something a lot of current gamers are completely unfamiliar with.

Now from the standpoint of these people, when your forced to CC, the healer now runs out of mana, the first thing they start thinking is its the tanks fault, the tanks gear suck, has no skill, takes too much damage, etc.

The jump from Wrath to Cata was too sudden and implimented poorly imo, if this was their ultimate plan they should have adjusted Wrath instances to require CC long before Cata was released.

Then those people should've been playing in BC or vanilla. You can't hold Blizzard accountable for the fact that they didn't hold players' hands and make them realize they have more spells that aren't aoe. It was Blizzard's fault they made it too easy in Wrath, however, they DID implement higher difficulty dungeons with the release of Icecrown that did require far better group coordination and even some CC. And yep, sometimes healers even had mana problems. So if anything, they tried to help people out of the next expansion. But instead idiots put their pvp gear on in order to get their ilevel up in order to queue for HoR heroic, when they really couldn't put out the dps needed for it.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Tev » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:07 pm

Nikachelle wrote:Then those people should've been playing in BC. It was Blizzard's fault they made it too easy in Wrath, however, they DID implement higher difficulty dungeons with the release of Icecrown that did require far better group coordination and even some CC. And yep, sometimes healers even had mana problems. So if anything, they tried to help people out of the next expansion. But instead idiots put their pvp gear on in order to get their ilevel up in order to queue for HoR heroic, when they really couldn't put out the dps needed for it.


Even icecrown could be rolled with most group comps, CC was more of an occasional gimick than something done regularly. As for ilevel pumping DPS, I swear to god, I don't know if its my server/battlegroup but every time I get a DK in group finder, its exactly what you said, some idiot using pvp gear to pump up his ilvl that ends up doing 5k or less dps.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:19 pm

Yes - A bonus to people who stick it out to the end.
Yes - To having to do the normal first or some sort of attunement
Yes - To Class quests that make you LEARN your EFFING spellbook and the CC/interupt/utility spells in it.

And finally
a big YES to smart loot.

If your random LFG party has a Paladin, 2DK's, a shadow priest and holy priest, then multiple drops of mail or leather gear is a bit irritating.
Surely there must be some way to subtly reduce the chance of pointless loot drops.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:56 pm

masterpoobaa wrote:Surely there must be some way to subtly reduce the chance of pointless loot drops.


There's no question they can do this. See: JC quest items. You only see the items that make sense for your class -- e.g., caster JCs don't get STR trinket, Paladins don't get Agil trinket.

Will they ever do this? I'm willing to bet never. They persist on goddamn fucking stupid "of the Conqueror/Protector/Vanquisher" token differentiation and they seem to think it's a good idea. They want drops to be "exciting." They want you to have reason to go do a boss over and over and over again.

If a player only had to run each boss once to get completely geared out, for a certain (probably large) segment, there would be no reason to continue to do that content. (How many people do you know that have perfect attendance then suddenly start missing raids once they get the thing they were after for months?)
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby lythac » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:16 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:Surely there must be some way to subtly reduce the chance of pointless loot drops.


There's no question they can do this. See: JC quest items. You only see the items that make sense for your class -- e.g., caster JCs don't get STR trinket, Paladins don't get Agil trinket.


Also MC never dropped mail SP for alliance and plate SP for Horde (until the patch for TBC). But that had no comp variables and was set in stone.
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