CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Meloree » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:33 am

theckhd wrote:
Meloree wrote:I don't know, I personally find 939 even more boring and mechanical than 969 was. Even with the GC procs, it's not dynamic enough to be anything but routine - there's no way to separate "good at 939" from "bad at 939". So, to me, any kind of mixing it up has some fun value.

That's an inherent issue with 939, regardless of holy power generation. This change may break up the monotony some, in that we're not on a fixed 9-second cycle. But it's still at it's root CS-X-repeat, filling X with whatever is available. The only thing separating "good" from "bad" in either system is how well someone adheres to the SotR>J>AS>Cons>HW queue for the X slots, which is fairly trivial.

I sort of wish they had gone back to the old 4.5-second CS model and given us HotR and/or Holy Shield as a separate filler. There's a lot of potential in that model to make Grand Crusader and Sacred Duty important. It just has to be handled properly, and Holy Power mechanics would have to be adjusted pretty significantly.


Well, something. I genuinely love Cataclysm raiding - no matter how frustrating it's been to get my guild to wake up to the new paradigms - but 939 is a bit of a sore spot for me. The difference between a good tank and a bad tank has rarely come down to how well they do a threat rotation - it's always been about movement and utility usage - but it was nice to be able to differentiate "good at threat" and "bad at threat" based on more than whatever your latency happens to be.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:45 am

I think we can all agree that the rotation issue is mostly a preference issue. Do you like a fixed GCD-filled rotation or a more dynamic rotation? Kinda a preference thing. However, I do also agree with Theck that the change to the rotation is at best, very minor. I'm also very sympathetic with Meloree about the "good tank" vs. "bad tank" thing (although personally I've found survivability CDs to be distinguishing issue more often than not).
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Destruktive » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:46 am

Threat generation early in the fight is a problem and is now entirely rng based. The first and second ShotR are vital to holding threat. Now if you miss 4 CS's in a row at the start of the fight, which actually happened to me last night, then any decent dps will pass you. I had an md and tricks on every pull and still had dps riding me for far longer than I was comfortable with in many of the fights and even pull off me on 1 occasion, which has never happened before on a single boss fight.

The frustrating thing is you are powerless to do anything about it aside from stacking threat stats. You're guaranteed 3 HoPo off the start through Divine Plea, after that it's a dice roll.

Mid/Late fight threat is a non issue, but gameplay feels extremely clunky and frustrating right now with ~25% of my CS's failing to land.
My undergeared DK who has similar hit/exp levels has far more reliable threat than my pally now.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vanifae » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:57 am

So Word of Glory generates 0 threat, is that a recent change?
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:01 pm

So the only thing they managed to do is make our thrat gen more RNG based and annoy us making our clunky resource mechanic even more clunky and lying about the whole affair or just screwing the whole thing up.

Somehow understandable that they tried to hide something so obvious like a three year old. It´s really a mess.

They changed WoG too?
Last edited by Dantriges on Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Petrus » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:01 pm

If that's true, it also wasn't in the patch notes, and these stealth-nerfs are getting a bit excessive. I'd like to test it on a mob, though, before I make any hasty assumptions.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Doxa » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:03 pm

Vanifae wrote:So Word of Glory generates 0 threat, is that a recent change?


If that's true I will be a bit pissed about this. It's possible that it was never intended for CS/HotR to generate HP in the event of a miss and was therefore, corrected.

But the WoG change is clearly not a "bug fix".
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:06 pm

Doxa wrote:
Vanifae wrote:So Word of Glory generates 0 threat, is that a recent change?


If that's true I will be a bit pissed about this. It's possible that it was never intended for CS/HotR to generate HP in the event of a miss and was therefore, corrected.

But the WoG change is clearly not a "bug fix".


Apparently it was, because it's been that way since some time in January. Jere PM-ed me about it this morning to let me know. The last testing I saw before that was Wrathblood's tests in December, at which point he determined that it was generating 50% threat rather than the 25% that heals were supposed to.

In other words, 4.0.6 didn't break WoG healing threat, it's been broken since a 4.0.3a hotfix some time before 1/25/2011.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vanifae » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:10 pm

So now WoG is purely a survival dump with no threat, I suppose once Vengeance kicks in this is a none issue.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:13 pm

Vanifae wrote:So now WoG is purely a survival dump with no threat, I suppose once Vengeance kicks in this is a none issue.

Pretty much. According to the MATLAB simulations, substituting WoG for SotR is a gain of around 2.6k HPS at a cost of 2k DPS, or 6k TPS. That's not accounting for Eternal Glory; in a full survivability spec/glyph setup the cost is slightly more favorable because SotR hits for less and EG makes WoGging more frequent.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Vanifae » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:15 pm

See I am torn I really enjoy hitting things hard with me shield, and I find the WoG spec boring but I don't want to feel I am gimping my raid with the "normal" spec.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:04 pm

Vanifae wrote:See I am torn I really enjoy hitting things hard with me shield, and I find the WoG spec boring but I don't want to feel I am gimping my raid with the "normal" spec.

I've never been a fan of SoI/WoG tanking. I'd much rather tank with SoT/SotR, and maybe use WoG from time to time in smart places to react to things. But Vengeance pretty much killed threat generation as a concern, and self-healing helps us kill bosses more than the mediocre DPS increase that I get from SoT/SotR.

And at the end of the day, killin' bosses is what matters.

So trust me, you're not alone in that opinion.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Meloree » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:10 pm

theckhd wrote:
Vanifae wrote:See I am torn I really enjoy hitting things hard with me shield, and I find the WoG spec boring but I don't want to feel I am gimping my raid with the "normal" spec.

I've never been a fan of SoI/WoG tanking. I'd much rather tank with SoT/SotR, and maybe use WoG from time to time in smart places to react to things. But Vengeance pretty much killed threat generation as a concern, and self-healing helps us kill bosses more than the mediocre DPS increase that I get from SoT/SotR.

And at the end of the day, killin' bosses is what matters.

So trust me, you're not alone in that opinion.


As you might expect from one of the big proponents of DPS tanking in Wrath...

/signed
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Petrus » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:21 pm

I greatly agree - I only switch to SoI for tanking when:

a) A healer goes down
b) The other tank is suddenly taking ton of damage and I need to up my self-healing so the healers can cover him
c) I need to help heal the other tank for some reason
d) The group is dead and I'm soloing a boss on 5man (my back starts to hurt)

The rest of the time I SoT and run with it.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Kihra » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:39 pm

I'd be interested in knowing which of these gives the most self-healing with the assumption that all 10 points of Glyph of SoT would count towards the soft Exp cap (reduce both Dodge and Parry chance).

(1) Seal of Truth coupled with Glyph of Seal of Truth and WoG spam.
(2) Seal of Insight coupled with Glyph of Seal of Insight and WoG spam.

(1) will give you the most HPS from WoG, but at the cost of Seal of Insight. (2) will cause you to have fewer WoG, but you heal from SoI. You also get the bonus from the Glyph.

Also curious about:

(3) Seal of Insight coupled with WoG spam, but no Glyph of SoI. Obviously this is the same as (2) but without the healing bonus, but it's a common scenario for fights where you care about threat at various points during the fight (leading you to not re-glyph).
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