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A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby tlitp » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:04 pm

Dreamstar :
  • CS behaves (somewhat) similar to HotR; if it fails to connect, it doesn't generate HoPow; unlike HotR, it's represented properly in the log
  • CS's base value is, indeed, 135% of the weapon damage
  • WotL/Crusade/t11bonus are still additive

Theck : The "bug" may well be intended behaviour. For about two weeks (2-3 builds), CS hasn't generated HoPow from non-connects; HotR is also confirmed to work in a similar fashion. A new era ? :P
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:18 pm

It would be pretty shit if that's intended. It would be a pretty significant nerf to DPS/Threat for no apparent reason. I guess it would make us care about hit, but that would be a bit skewed compared to all of the other tanks.

The fact that there was no official mention of it in any set of patch notes is also suspicious. I'd be more inclined to believe that they reworked the seal/censure mechanics for ret and accidentally borked CS/HotR in the process.

In any event, someone should post a bug report on the PTR forums immediately, either to clarify that it's intended (in which case, we round up the pitchforks) or to make sure they're aware of it so that it doesn't go live in 4.0.6.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby tlitp » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:29 pm

There are several reports on this very issue (well, mainly Ret whines). On both EU/NA. At this point, it's quite hard to believe that they simply aren't aware of it.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby Kelaan » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:45 am

When ret complains, the response may be "then you should be hit-capped". That's OK for a DPS spec, since they all try to do that anyways. For a tank, stacking hit is normally at some odds with the major (mitigation) part of our role.

On the other hand, if they want us to cap expertise and hit, then that explains a lot of the hit/X and exp/X itemization I'm seeing in the various zones.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:36 am

The problem as far as I see it (which also happens to be the reason I feel certain it's a bug and not intended) is that other tanks' resources are not as intimately tied to hit or expertise.
  • DKs get a slight benefit from Runic Empowerment (similar to 4.0.3a Divine Purpose for Ret), and generate Runic Power faster if they don't miss (I think?), but both of these seem to be very marginal effects (presumably they can cast again on the next GCD, so the real cost due to hit is the GCD, not the power itself). Most of the power regeneration here is static.
  • Warriors and Bears generate most of their rage from taking damage, which is also essentially static. The portion of their rage they generate from attacks is presumably not large enough to force them to break rotation; at best it means a couple fewer heroic strikes over the course of an encounter.
If holy power generation is tied to CS or HotR connecting, then we're the only tank whose source of power is 100% dependent on our attacks succeeding. That doesn't make it impossible, but

In addition, if we assume that tank DPS/TPS is fairly well balanced right now (which, I'll admit I've not researched, but I've also not heard or seen anything to suggest that there's a significant imbalance), then this change would be a significant nerf to our threat generation relative to other tanks.

The devs may very well be aware of this, but it would be nice to have a confirmation one way or the other.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby tlitp » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:43 am

Unresolved issues :
  • seals and triggers (check the first page for the basic methodology, then refer to the mentioned post; it will guide you through build/target/sequence). If you're still confused and would like further assistance, contact me via PM.
  • Consecration+Avalanche (this one isn't really urgent, we can safely postpone it until 4.0.6 goes live)

EDIT : please don't spam this particular thread with discussion on hit/exp, we'd like it as clean as possible.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby Shathus » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:45 am

theckhd wrote:In addition, if we assume that tank DPS/TPS is fairly well balanced right now (which, I'll admit I've not researched, but I've also not heard or seen anything to suggest that there's a significant imbalance), then this change would be a significant nerf to our threat generation relative to other tanks.


Not sure how accurate it all is, but I saw this the other day

http://raidbots.com/dpscurrent/

according to those #s we are 3 out of 4 in terms of DPS

(chart for those blocked)
Code: Select all
   Class       Spec   Median           Min   Max   Average   Std Dev   Records
WoL   
Druid   
Feral Bear   11821   %      8658   35264   12357    3337.74   1130
WoL   
Warrior   
Protection   11649   %      7596   45849   12975    5949.6   1259
WoL   
Paladin   
Protection   10131   %      7174   34308   10835    3428.5   1316
WoL   
Death Knight   
Blood   8139   %      5929   32789   8750    2575.32   1145
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:27 am

tlitp wrote:Unresolved issues :
  • seals and triggers (check the first page for the basic methodology, then refer to the mentioned post; it will guide you through build/target/sequence). If you're still confused and would like further assistance, contact me via PM.
  • Consecration+Avalanche (this one isn't really urgent, we can safely postpone it until 4.0.6 goes live)

First post updated, see if I missed any conclusions. I'll try and drum up activity since this is the last weekend of PTR.

I've been listing each result as it comes in chronologically for record-keeping purposes, which means there are a few entries that contradict each other. My original solution for this was going to be a "consolidated" section that groups up the latest result. Does this seem like the best way to organize the thread, or should I just start nuking old entries? I'm open to organizational suggestions here; I can always keep the historical record in a separate post, or move it to the end.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby angelflavor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:38 pm

One thing I found is that AS stacks SoT dot on all targets it hits.
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby towelliee » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:14 pm

angelflavor wrote:One thing I found is that AS stacks SoT dot on all targets it hits.


Of this is true wouldn't this be an insane dmg increase on aoe?
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby angelflavor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:41 pm

towelliee wrote:
angelflavor wrote:One thing I found is that AS stacks SoT dot on all targets it hits.


Of this is true wouldn't this be an insane dmg increase on aoe?


I didn't have much time on the PTR today but I did record this so show that AS does stack the dot, and it can stack up to 5times on 3 different targets http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ms0c8gmmahv21odr/
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:57 pm

As Theck recommended, PTR Bug report on CS/HotR HoP generation

US PTR Forum Post: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2030264397

Feel free to chime in, per blue's stickies, paraphased, "We don't mind 'I'm having this issue too' posts as it helps us prioritize bugs, though constructive posts are more helpful"
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby angelflavor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:14 pm

I made a quick vid showing AS stacking SoT dot on 3 targets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2napfT3AGQo
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby Rabs » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:19 pm

theckhd wrote:Seals on PTR
  • build : you'll want two distinct builds, one with 0/2 JotJ, the other with 1+ JotJ
  • gear : any, but equip a slow 2H (3.6+)
  • seal : rotate all of them
  • target : Argent Tournament dummies
  • attack sequence : only J, AS, HotR (i.e. avoid AA)
  • goal :
    1. test AS and HotR as triggers; use the following sequence :
      Code: Select all
      switch to SoR-one AS-switch to SoJ-one AS-switch to SoT-fully stack Censure-one AS-switch to SoI-ten AS
      (...)
      repeat for HotR
    2. using a build with 2/2 JotJ :
      Code: Select all
      switch to SoI-ten J-switch to SoT-fully stack Censure-one J

      Important : do not pollute the log with AA entries, smart positioning is highly desirable; also, a slow 2H weapon is mandatory (for the JotJ test; for AS, 1H+shield, obviously).
  • note : SoInsight may not proc on the very first cast, therefore each of the two abilities must be cast at least five times before dismissing it as a valid trigger.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ymeogtpukwq5rolj/

I messed some stuff up here (It's late and I'm tired) but I still wanted to get you something to work with, I'll redo them tomorrow if PTR is still up. I forgot about doing SoI until I was already doing the HotR testing so my testing sequence is something like : SoR-AS-SoJ-AS-SoT-5xcensure-AS, same for HotR and then SoI - Multiple AS - HotR. During test #2 I forgot to swap to a 2H during the SoI test but I did swap for the censure/JoT test.

I'll redo it tomorrow if this makes the log useless to you.


theckhd wrote:Avalanche/Consecration testing on PTR.
Avalanche isn't triggered by Consecration on the live realms. It raises an interesting question : is it being triggered by the cast itself, or by the DoT effect ? Testing this should be fairly straightforward :
  • grab a build with 2/2 HG (the corresponding glyph isn't terribly relevant, you may as well skip it)
  • be sure to avoid using SoT, thus eliminating the nuisance of Censure
  • attack a low-lvl dummy (only) with Cons and J, outside of melee range
  • check any Avalanche procs that are not synchronized (within <1 second) to Cons casts or J
  • stop when encountering the first match, or after five Cons casts

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/asnpfx405i8mkqjj/
The end of this log is me auto attacking for a little while to show that I actually had avalanche on my weapon
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Re: A Call to Arms - Cataclysm Mechanics testing

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:56 pm

Anyone have rough numbers on what effect holy power / miss/dodge/parry will effect us?

I don't trust my knowledge of combat tables in cata, since it's something we've never really looked at with our disregard of the stats...

but:
8% miss
7% dodge
14% parry

that about right? so a 29% chance of no holy power, base?

Or with glyph:
8% Miss
4.5% dodge
11.5% parry

Which, then rounds up to be 8/5/12, or 25% base miss chance?


oiu, i was hoping to not need to do this research, but I gotta tank tomorrow night and I'm not sure I can accept a base 1-in-4 chance to not get holy power, my threat's already in the toilet as I have 0% hit, and ~10-12 expertise.... and usually no misdirect (or, no strong misdirect)
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