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CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

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CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby ironpants » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:11 am

Today i did some testing on the latest PTR build 13596 (marked as release date) and still missed, dodged or parried CS/HotR do not generate HoPo. I thought this was a bug as it was first mentionend in the PTR forum.

But as this is the Release Candidate iam afraid this will go live. This could have serious impacts on our threat generation with our current philosophy to ignore attacktable stats. If this change is intented iam afraid we have to reconsider our itemisation and care about hit and exp. But this would us rank down behind the other tankclasses in CTC and this wouldnt be a nice scenario at all to me.

So does anybody know more about this case? Did Blizzard mentionend anything about it?

On the other hand, i hope it is a bug and will be fixed, because a not hitting CS not generating HoPo would be worse for our retribution brothers.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dwarfadin » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:20 am

On the other hand, i hope it is a bug and will be fixed, because a not hitting CS not generating HoPo would be worse for our retribution brothers.


As someone said on Call to Arms thread, retribution aren't supposed to miss or dodge: no one has ever complained about rogues don't getting combo points for missing a mutilate.

The problem is about protection only, but even if it will affect our threat (which is however a non-issue after the first 10 sec) I do care about our WoG heals, which won't be guaranteed every 9-10 sec. THAT would be a huge nerf.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby ironpants » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:06 am

Iam sorry, i haven't seen that this issue is discussed in the "call to arms" thread. so i will follow the discussion there. But i think we deserve an answer if it is intented or not. I openend a thread in the EU PTR forum and sent another bug report on the PTR.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dwarfadin » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:58 am

I don't think Call to Arms thread is intented for discussions. Better keepin' it here.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:06 am

Dwarfadin wrote:The problem is about protection only, but even if it will affect our threat (which is however a non-issue after the first 10 sec) I do care about our WoG heals, which won't be guaranteed every 9-10 sec. THAT would be a huge nerf.

Threat will probably still be a non-issue, but it will be lower. Even if you're using all of your HP on WoG, that's a significant chunk of threat against bosses. Under the right conditions, a single WoG causes almost as much threat as a single SotR does.

I posted this over at EJ yesterday as well. I think our best chance at getting this fixed before Tuesday is to keep reporting it. The more people complaining, the better.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vinylger » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:59 am

Being a long time reader, i observed a little thing too (i don't know if this already known and mentioned somewhere else). A parried/dodged SotR on a Sacred Duty procc will remove the procc but will keep the HoPo. As we have low to zero exp would it make sense to put those two talent points somewhere else? I'm not a mathematician but maybe those 2 points in Reckoning would build up some more Threat as a dodged SotR with Sacred Duty buff? If some math is already done about that i'll please you to give me a hint. :)

Perfect lecture for my morning coffee, keep up your good work!
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Siral » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:49 am

i think this was already discussed somewhere in the forum.
Since in instace we use survival rotation more than threat rotation (WoG in the place of SotR), it is really useful put points in other talents (eternal glory if u dont already have it, reckoning for sure).
To hold aggro in boss fight just be sure to start with divine plea - avenging wrath (then choose which opening use: AS + SotR if boss is static like magmaw or inquisition exo exo judgement if mob is mobile) use seal of truth till aggro is stable and then switch to seal of insight.
If this thing goes live, we could have some problems to keep our rotation stable. Now we are sure that every 9 seconds we got a 3 holy power move to do, but what if we miss 1 cs and get no hopo???
Dont remember perfectly numbers at the moment but if we assume that with low hit and expertise we could miss or parried/dodged CS at 10%, our rotation could be messed 1 every 30 seconds, so about 1 time every 3 rotation.
However, HotR, iirc, cant be dodged or parried so it will become our basic move over CS even if CS get the buff of damage in 4.0.6, at least at very low level of hit and expertise.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby vinylger » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:02 am

Thank you for the HotR hint, i'll try this this evening. Tanking with SoI+WoG with 3 HoPo gets me into threat trouble after a few dodges/parries while our cat does at least about 16-18k dps on Nefarian. (Phase 3, 10 normal, only 1 TotT (rogue)) (HoSalvation on CD)

Maybe HotR "outperforms" CS a little whilst having zero threat stats (and if a dodged CS doesn't generate HoPo anymore).

Just a few thoughts of mine, nothing calculated, no maths. :?
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby ironpants » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:49 am

CS AND HotR have the problem with not generating HoPo when not hiting the target, so switching to HotR will be no alternative.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Jaitee » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:11 am

Dwarfadin wrote:
On the other hand, i hope it is a bug and will be fixed, because a not hitting CS not generating HoPo would be worse for our retribution brothers.


As someone said on Call to Arms thread, retribution aren't supposed to miss or dodge: no one has ever complained about rogues don't getting combo points for missing a mutilate.


at low gear levels rets miss ie gearing up in heroics and in certain gimick fights like chimeron with the hit debuff also i think magmaw can parry and since you have to stand in front of him

comparing us not getting hopo and rogues not getting CP on a miss/dodge/parry isnt a very good comparison since rogues get 60% or 80% (cant remember which) of the energy refunded if their CP generators dont land and they only have too wait another second before they try again (rogues have a 1 second GCD) prot waits 3 times longer and ret 4 and a half times longer not to mention that unless a pally seriously gimps their survivability by reforging everything to hit/expertise and gemming exp then there is no way we can totally knock parries of the combat table which means no matter what our rotation is gonna be getting messed with...though the gap caused by not having 3 hopo for SotR would actually be a perfect place for grand crusader procs


looking through my log from last night i did just over 1000 CS's around 300 of which didnt hit most of the night i wasnt running the SoT glyph though but still thats 300 hopo i wouldnt have gotten!
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:28 am

vinylger wrote:Being a long time reader, i observed a little thing too (i don't know if this already known and mentioned somewhere else). A parried/dodged SotR on a Sacred Duty procc will remove the procc but will keep the HoPo. As we have low to zero exp would it make sense to put those two talent points somewhere else? I'm not a mathematician but maybe those 2 points in Reckoning would build up some more Threat as a dodged SotR with Sacred Duty buff? If some math is already done about that i'll please you to give me a hint. :)

This has been that way since beta, and is already been included in the MATLAB model.

HotR will be no better on live - it can, in fact, miss/dodge/parry. It just doesn't generate a combat log entry when it does so.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby ironpants » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:55 am

Jaitee iam with you. As you said we shouldnt forget that there are a few fight were you can't stand behind these boss all the time. so in my opinion it is a problem for ret paladins if this bugs remains.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby theckhd » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:29 am

The 4.0.6 official patch notes are up, and make no mention of this change. Further evidence that it's probably a bug.

In addition, since this is likely the last day for the PTR, I would really appreciate it if someone could finish off the final Call to Arms test (seal mechanics testing) before it goes down. Without that test, I can't finish the 4.0.6 MATLAB code, so unless you get on there today and get me results, I can't post updated MATLAB calculations tomorrow.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby econ21 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:55 am

Bug or not, it seems likely that this change will go live. If so, how are people going to respond?

I'm inclined to switch back to my previous reforging strategy - leaving threat stats on my gear unchanged and only reforging avoidance to mastery (or other mastery, to keep balance for diminishing returns). I found reforging threat gave me only minimal improvement in CTC anyway. And the almost comically frequent number of shields whizzing up into the sky after failing to connect was starting to get annoying. My melee damage reduction will suffer if I switch back though.
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Re: CS/HotR not generating HoPo when missed, parried or dodged

Postby Dantriges » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:36 am

Hoping they fix it soon? It´s a bug in a basic resource mechanic.
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