Tanks as dps.

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Tanks as dps.

Postby Durability » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:56 pm

DISCLAIMER: I am not attempting to say any of this for certain, but it's something I'd love to see some feedback and theory on. Use at your own risk. The following numbers are gross oversimplifications, but they serve to illustrate the point.

So I was sitting down this morning, trying to figure out how to help my (10-man) raid beat some of the more strict dps races present in current content (Chimaeron, Ascendant Council, etc). In thinking about it, I realized that on a typical raid fight, I end up contributing between half and 2/3 of an actual dpser's dps. So I went off to world of logs, pulled up some random parses, and found that on most fights an individual tank in a 10-man accounted for approximately 25% of the total damage taken by the raid.

So, as a ballpark, I decided to see what swapping 2000 Mastery for threat stats would do for me. 2000 Mastery is almost exactly 25% block, or 7.5% damage reduction. Applying this number to the 25% number above, even assuming all damage is blockable (which will give a result more skewed to Mastery than would truly be the case), you get a 1.8% increase to the total damage taken by the raid. Assuming that burst isn't an issue - which for me it generally hasn't been, with Halfus the possible exception - this means you'll need to drop the boss 1.8% faster to save healer mana.

By contrast, those 2000 itemization points, when converted to pure Strength, add (using Theck's numbers on the 60% Vengeance [slightly below the actual cap] from the MATLAB thread), yields approximately 2400 dps. In my raid, which does approximately 60k raid dps, this works out to a 4% damage gain. Even in a better raid, one doing say 100k raid dps (that is, every dps at around 16-17k), would gain 2.4% - more than the 1.8% total increase in damage taken.

This, of course, assumes you can shift 2000 itemization points to str - which I used because it can be stacked without cap, unlike Hit or Expertise. Of course, hit/exp are even more valuable before their respective caps, and repeating the calculation for the 248 expertise rating, 593 hit rating, and 1159 leftover str gives an additional 150 dps on top of that. And of course, these are using the stat weights at low armory str, low hit, low exp, and low vengeance - as one stacks any of these stats, the others just get more valuable.

What do we make of this, and have I borked the math anywhere?

EDIT: In the interest of completeness, the Mastery does translate to around 200 dps through Reckoning, so the dmg numbers are marginally lower.
Last edited by Durability on Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby inthedrops » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:48 pm

Durability wrote:2000 Mastery is almost exactly 25% block, or 7.5% damage reduction. Applying this number to the 25% number above, even assuming all damage is blockable (which will give a result more skewed to Mastery than would truly be the case), you get a 1.8% increase to the total damage taken by the raid. Assuming that burst isn't an issue - which for me it generally hasn't been, with Halfus the possible exception - this means you'll need to drop the boss 1.8% faster to save healer mana.


First of all, this discussion does interest me because at some point I want to get back into the whole "Tank trying to DPS thing" that I had so much fun doing in WotLK.

However I have an issue with an unstated implication that follows your premise (which I quoted above). The premise is "1.8% more raid damage requires 1.8% more healing to compensate". And the unstated implication is that it'll require 1.8% more healer mana and/or throughput to compensate.

My guts tells me that the attention required of healers to keep this tank alive will be a greater expense than 1.8%.

Points:
1) Presumably they'll have to spam heal more in order to ensure the tank doesn't take too much damage in between heals. This means less time "not casting" and regenerating mana.
2) Similar to point 1, they might find themselves caught in a situation where they need to make more use of expensive heals (e.g. Flash of Light instead of a Divine Light)

Interesting discussion topic, but I wanted to share my first reaction with you.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Durability » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:56 pm

inthedrops wrote:However I have an issue with an unstated implication that follows your premise (which I quoted above). The premise is "1.8% more raid damage requires 1.8% more healing to compensate". And the unstated implication is that it'll require 1.8% more healer mana and/or throughput to compensate.

My guts tells me that the attention required of healers to keep this tank alive will be a greater expense than 1.8%.


This is true. That said, throughput hasn't really been the issue, at least not in my personal experience. Obviously these numbers are gross oversimplifications - but they do provide enough evidence that, at least, it warrants further investigation. Some of that healing (e.g., hots, beacon) would be wasted overhealing anyway.

Points:
1) Presumably they'll have to spam heal more in order to ensure the tank doesn't take too much damage in between heals. This means less time "not casting" and regenerating mana.


The 5-second rule no longer exists, as far as I know, so this falls under the extra expenditure I'd already mentioned.

2) Similar to point 1, they might find themselves caught in a situation where they need to make more use of expensive heals (e.g. Flash of Light instead of a Divine Light)


This is true, in situations where the tank is in significant danger, but I don't find myself really dying until half the raid is dead anyway, most of the time.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Epimer » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:36 pm

Or instead of reforging into threat/DPS stats, you focus on increasing your survivability and drop a healer, gaining 5 times as much DPS as the reforging stunt.

Sorry, not very helpful, just sayin' :)
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Durability » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:47 pm

Epimer wrote:Or instead of reforging into threat/DPS stats, you focus on increasing your survivability and drop a healer, gaining 5 times as much DPS as the reforging stunt.

Sorry, not very helpful, just sayin' :)


I realize it's a pretty extreme proposal - but on the surface, it does seem to check out, which is why I've come to Theck's Dungeon of Higher Mathematics to see why I'm wrong :p
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby inthedrops » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:38 pm

Yeah I'm interested in what other people have to say. My motivation is in eventually trying to do a lot of tank DPS. So I'll be interested in the "how much can we do and at what cost?" aspect of things.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Dwarfadin » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:41 pm

Making calcution on overall damage taken is quite a wrong perspective in my opinion.

The question is not: "how much total damage i'll take at the end of the fight", but: "how much damage i'm taking there, how and when?"

You must examine the fight from a healer point of view: let's say, if you block a hit, the healer spend a standard Heal ( or Holy Light or etc), if you're taking a greater hit ( not blocked), the healer must use greater Heal or Flash Heal (and similars), which are much more expensive. So, even if you're X more damage, the healer's effert is much bigger then X.

Let's say you're fighting a boss with a strong AoE phases: even if you behave well during the rest of the boss, having the tank taking more damage than usual could stress healers too much, and one or more Dps'er could die in order to keep you alive.

On the other hand, the really dangerous attacks of the boss aren't avoidable. Just think of Magmaw's Mangle, breathes, Ferocious Roar on Halfus, Fire Cone, blastes and bolts in the Ascendant Council... so on. So, it doesn't really matter how much avoidance do you have...... actually, if you get an unlucky streak you might be hit while at low health, and die.

These are just some simple examples on how you can't calculate it in an absolute way.
It doesn't mean you can't dps tank.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Brutalus » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:11 am

Carrying around a few hit and expertise items and dps flasks is usually a good idea for those kinds of bosses mentioned. If you aren't going close to dying, then usually it isn't a problem. I find myself often trying a fight, seeing the basic level of survivability needed, then adding in items with hit/expertise to maximise damage output and thereby make the fight shorter/easier.

On farm content, though, is a different matter. My dps set has 148k health unbuffed, which in itself feels kind of low, but it's usually more than fine provided you use it on the right bosses. We are able to produce pretty high dps numbers still:

Valiona and Theralion

Argaloth

Whatever you do, know your limits - no one wants to wipe because the tank died because he was in dps gear or because the healers were overstrained healing the tank. In addition, be prepared with cooldowns if you see yourself drop low if you see yourself about to.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Durability » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:20 pm

Granted, no one likes to wipe to a tank death - but no one likes to wipe period. The question is: can we reduce the number of wipes to dps checks more than we increase the number of wipes to tank deaths? For instance, equipping Darkmoon Card: Hurricane costs me a trinket slot, but I gain nearly 900 dps from that trinket alone (the proc is ~600, and the str another ~300).
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Koatanga » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:41 pm

Keep in mind that what you are looking to avoid, as a tank, are death scenarios. Reducing combat table gives you a greater chance for a string of unblocked hits. You are decreasing the number of consecutive unblocked hits needed to kill you, and increasing the chance of that event.

If you are hitting enrage timers such that your DPS input would make the difference, I wonder why. Are your DPS undergeared? If so, are your healers similarly undergeared? If so, would taking more damage be advisable?

If you are not hitting enrage timers, then it is not a potential death scenario, which to me means we get back to our day job of being a tank, which means reducing incoming damage. Being a tough tank is not directly measurable like DPS is, but I take a lot more satisfaction out of being easy to heal than I do from doing a lot of DPS.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby inthedrops » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:49 pm

Koatanga wrote:Keep in mind that what you are looking to avoid, as a tank, are death scenarios. Reducing combat table gives you a greater chance for a string of unblocked hits. You are decreasing the number of consecutive unblocked hits needed to kill you, and increasing the chance of that event.

If you are hitting enrage timers such that your DPS input would make the difference, I wonder why. Are your DPS undergeared? If so, are your healers similarly undergeared? If so, would taking more damage be advisable?

If you are not hitting enrage timers, then it is not a potential death scenario, which to me means we get back to our day job of being a tank, which means reducing incoming damage. Being a tough tank is not directly measurable like DPS is, but I take a lot more satisfaction out of being easy to heal than I do from doing a lot of DPS.


This discussion doesn't need to be about what's practical. Sometimes it's about what's fun, in this case trying to do damage (for epeen sake or just for keeping things interesting)
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Valinyr » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:17 pm

inthedrops wrote:
This discussion doesn't need to be about what's practical. Sometimes it's about what's fun, in this case trying to do damage (for epeen sake or just for keeping things interesting)


I don't mean to sound disparaging but, if you are a tank and find that you have more fun (during progression)doing more DPS than making your healers' lives easier then you need to consider changing specs.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Brutalus » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:08 pm

The problem here is that we're talking about 2 different things: progression tank dpsing to beat enrage timers and farm content dps-tanking, which obviously have very different outcomes and motives and as such should probably not be mixed together in the same thread.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby inthedrops » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:12 pm

Brutalus wrote:The problem here is that we're talking about 2 different things: progression tank dpsing to beat enrage timers and farm content dps-tanking, which obviously have very different outcomes and motives and as such should probably not be mixed together in the same thread.


Yeah I'll just sit back and listen. My interest is not the same as the others posting.
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Re: Tanks as dps.

Postby Siral » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:35 am

Doing DPS is not the work of the tank.

Stayin' alive is our work.

But, I understand that see our dps be a little higher could be useful sometimes and also satisfactory.
The only thing u can try is to swap some items full avoidance with threat/avoidance stats (hit/mastery maybe are the best to choose) and use DPS Flask (+300 str), threat enchant (landslide or avalanche) and maybe also different gems (str/stamina, str/mastery or similar).

You can raise a bit your dps, but u must remember that you cant push beyond a limit. This limit is signed by the encounter and the ability of your healers, so if u wanna try just change 1 piece at time and make some test. Check your dps improve and take a look about your healers, if they have too much problems to keep u alive, you know that the limit is already reached.
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