Luck of the Draw buffed.

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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:32 am

majiben wrote:Do you retain the bonus if you kick said pugs and invite your guild mates? If so we could have a problem.


The invited guild member would only get the justice points, not the extra valor points at the end as they did not enter the dungeon via the finder tool.

Whether a bad player does 4200 or 4600 dps is immaterial, they will still die to [insert avoidable one-shot mechanic here].
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:55 am

PsiVen wrote:This is a core problem with the difficulty curve of the game that goes deeper than the dungeon experience.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the difficulty curve, but consider that maybe this is actually intended, at least in some part. The game has a very large casual player base, many of whom simply don't care about optimizing and playing well. They just want to log on and have fun facerolling things once or twice a week. It's probably a safe bet that these players also have a bunch of alts and enjoy trying new classes.

This isn't a slight at those players either - it's just an acknowledgment that they play the game a completely different way than we do. It's the difference between people who play Starcraft for the campaign mode and people who play in ladder matches (or "gold league" or whatever they call it these days). Both groups enjoy the game in their own way.

Another way to look at it is that the 1-85 portion of the game is tuned for the "Diablo II" crowd. People who want to log on, mash buttons, and destroy enemies without having to do much thinking. Heroic 5-mans and raids are the next step up, the "SC2 Silver/Gold League" if you will. They're the content you try if you want a bigger challenge. As the game goes on, old raid content (and earlier tiers of raid content) bleed down into the "Diablo II" category to keep those players supplied with new content.

It makes a lot of economic sense too. Rather than have two companies running two different games balanced for different crowds, and requiring their own hardware, staff, etc., you have one game with various tiers of content, and can spend more of that money on content rather than overhead.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Chicken » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:05 am

PsiVen wrote:Now picture a new player leveling in dungeons. From 1-60, your experience will range from "I have no idea what's going on" to "I know what's going on now and none of it is important". At no point are you punished for it. From 60-70, you start to appreciate people who use tanking gear, and start to wipe if you blatantly disregard mechanics. From 70-80, you learn how to do the same things efficiently, and are punished if you get really carried away.
This isn't entirely accurate any more actually. The difficulty curve is a bit odd at the moment; particularly the 50-60 range dungeons have tougher mobs than the 60-70 range does; if you go from doing the highest end classic dungeons to the lower end TBC dungeons now, you'll wonder why everything dies so quickly: The bosses in those have comparable health levels to the trash mobs in the highest end classic dungeons.

It's a bit silly.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Worldie » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:47 am

I would agree with this. I recently re-leveled my DK as i wanted to save some irlgold. Outland istances are a joke, you can do them without a healer and a tank, i could probably solo anything that doesnt stun or silence.
Northrend is a step up, but again, mechanics arent punishing, people can easily stand in fire and not die.

Then comes Cataclysm.


They should really reconsider at the very least Outland dungeons. They are really a joke right now.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Teranoid » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:26 pm

The funniest part of this whole debate (if you really want to even call it one) is the implication that heroic nerfs would never happen and bad players would be left to their own failures. As Theck said its a reflection of the player base and while I agree that Wrath was over the top with the lack of punishment for ignoring mechanics it certainly didn't hurt their bottom line.

The remark of how 60-70 somehow is supposed to make you step up and not ignore mechanics couldn't be farther from the truth considering anyone with a pulse can chain pull normals without breaking a sweat let alone having to deal with interrupts or anything that doesn't involve standing in fire while eating cleaves and 70-80 is about the same.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby halabar » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:31 am

Part of the problem is the whole that Blizz dug themselves in with cross-realm LFG. Example: I went in heroic Throne of Tides last night (I has to specifically select it, as it had never come up as the random) and I had never seen the place before. We slog through to first boss (tank wasn't marking well, so I had to figure out what to trap) and wipe once, everyone gets berated by the tank and healer, wipe a second time because the mob misses my trap, I get yelled at because the mob zigged, and everyone leaves.

Now consider that I and a ret pally were the only real CC, two mobs needed to be CCed, and there was no way to get through that without that working, I would say the buff is needed.

Most of these heroics are hard enough that if you miss a mechanic, you're dead. Expecting a random group to stay and learn is iffy at best.

I would imagine Blizz is looking at the numbers and seeing the thousands of failed heroics and all the tanks and healers that bail after one wipe, and sees that something needed to be done.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Epimer » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:34 am

halabar wrote:Now consider that I and a ret pally were the only real CC, two mobs needed to be CCed, and there was no way to get through that without that working, I would say the buff is needed.


Where you see that as a buff/nerf needed, I see that as an instance that encourages smart play. If you only have one CC for there, you can have somebody sit on the second healer mob (for example) and interrupt/stun them while the first is burned down. I like those little mechanics that require a bare minimum of communication (even if it's just "shaman hex square, mage poly moon" - although people being referred to by their class rather than their name bugs the crap out of me).

I enjoy there being a barrier to successfully completing a heroic still. And I don't think the barrier is set particularly high right now, because I've had a few groups this weekend where I've been the highest DPS as a freshly dinged 85 and haven't run into problems due to that level of low DPS. I'm not commenting from some ivory tower of smooth guild-only runs, either; I've been taking my shaman through exclusively LFD heroics and it's been painful in places. But it's more enjoyable than steamrolling everything, at least to me.

That said, I don't think buffing Luck of the Draw changes much. Ignoring mechanics will still be punishing until you overgear the content. One-shot mechanics will still do as the name suggests. So I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I don't see a major need for changes. Difficult content (relatively) encourages people to be better and communicate more, and I'm all for that.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Bobness » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:38 pm

PsiVen wrote:
Teranoid wrote:
Senador wrote: Second, it encourages guilds to bring one or two pugs into their heroic group just for the extra damage/speed buff.


How could this ever be the case? What person in their right mind would think "hey lets get someone who we don't know from some random server and maybe we'd get this run done 5 minutes faster"?

I'd rather have 4 other people with me that I can guarantee know their shit rather than shave a few minutes off a run.


I don't think it will affect guild groups much, but if you grab a tank+healer+dps it'll be a nice bonus with those two pickups. Basically, this buff is Blizzard admitting that the average player needs a 10% bonus to get by on mediocrity.

Anyway, nerfing heroics is cowardice but in the absence of other changes it has become necessary for PuG success with 5 average players. Most full-time raiders have bought all their valor gear and are less likely to run heroics, and the pool of inexperienced 85s that need heroics is only growing. Even so, I'd rather see a different approach to the problem that involves educating the playerbase instead of allowing the bads to not need to get any better.



Interesting POV without all those 'Bads' you're talking about this game would probably have disappeared, I think some people are just simply too unforgiving of players limitations.

I'm an averagish player with limited playtime, this buff will probably help me, even if that weren't the case I would still probably approve.

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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Arnock » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:30 pm

Although I don't play wow anymore, and therefore can't comment on the difficulty of cataclysm dungeons, I'd have to agree on the learning curve. When I first started playing wow around patch 2.1, I remember actually having to use CC, interrupts and burn orders in 5 mans while leveling, especially seeing as noone but pallies could effectively hold aggro on more than 1-2 mobs at a time. I, on my spirit-stacking low level mage, quickly learned what happened when I attacked a mob that the tank wasn't hitting, or didn't CC the target I was told to.



But, by the time wrath rolled around, there really wasn't a need for any of that, heck, many classes could solo 5 mans fairly easily because of all the buffs. For that matter, most instance loot was incredibly worse than heirloom gear, so most people didn't take the time to run 5 mans anyway.


Looking back, I'm pretty sure that, if I started playing after wrath was released, I'm pretty sure that I would have been among the facerolling, fire-standing, idiots who think that a sheeped target is a critter to hit to pad their dps meters.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby PsiVen » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:57 am

halabar wrote:I would imagine Blizz is looking at the numbers and seeing the thousands of failed heroics and all the tanks and healers that bail after one wipe, and sees that something needed to be done.


I'm sure that is their conclusion, but my position is that something should be done about the folks that leave after one wipe, and the people that cause wipes to continue happening because they can't be bothered to learn. Obviously Blizzard can't come out and say "Well, this system isn't working because we underestimated how shitty you all are." The difficulty curve and LFD system should have been designed to be idiot-proof, but instead they encourage new players to put as little effort as possible into getting their dungeons done, and in implementing this band-aid fix they basically said "We totally agree with all of you that it's everyone else that was screwing up your PuG runs."

There is some truth to the concept of PuGs being inherently harder due to lack of familiarity and organization, but in reality if you put 5 good players together they're likely to mesh very easily and blow the place up just as well as if they were all from the same guild. Even if Blizzard isn't saying it directly, Luck of the Draw is about those times when you wind up carrying someone, and making it less painful to do so. In that respect I suppose I should be glad for the change.

without all those 'Bads' you're talking about this game would probably have disappeared, I think some people are just simply too unforgiving of players limitations.


I don't believe most players have such limitations. There's a quadriplegic fellow who plays Starcraft 2 and shows his gaming on youtube, and if I'm to judge limitations based on the performances I've seen in random pickup groups, he's got a lot more to work with than the average WoW player. Some players are just plain unwilling to get better, and will/have actually quit because of Cataclysm heroics; but most of them will manage it accidentally when presented with a subtle enough learning curve.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Bobness » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:52 am

PsiVen wrote:I don't believe most players have such limitations. There's a quadriplegic fellow who plays Starcraft 2 and shows his gaming on youtube, and if I'm to judge limitations based on the performances I've seen in random pickup groups, he's got a lot more to work with than the average WoW player. Some players are just plain unwilling to get better, and will/have actually quit because of Cataclysm heroics; but most of them will manage it accidentally when presented with a subtle enough learning curve.


Consider that unwillingness to learn is also a limitation, given enough time most people can pretty much do anything, however that's pretty ineffcient way for any system to work.

I'm not disputing your philosophy for one moment, I am however questioning your assertion that you can apply it to WOW & believe that several million people will adopt it without moving on to something easier.

Fundamentally I believe WOW would be less rewarding if it didn't have the full spectrum of people playing it, within that I accept that some people just aren't prepared to go that extra mile.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby alayire » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:57 am

you guys are forgetting one thing. and it's very important.

if you have 1 baddie it's not THAT bad. chances are you might not even affect your heroic run, depending on how bad he is.
2 baddies is iffy, but 3 baddies is critical. 3 baddies means shit dps. Shit Dps mean low add switching or ads that never die, longer fights witch in turn translates into healer problems(even if he's good, he's bound to get over-extended), more opportunities for mistakes and all that shabam.

yes there will still be bosses where nomater how high the dps will be, idiots will wipe you. But "jeez NooBX please don't do that when that happens" is much easier to get across then a zillion more things low dps brings up.
I've had runs where ppl did really really good. CC'ing, switching targets, moving out of fire etc but still had very low dps and we just didn't make it. I'm priiity sure you get raid bosses like those too. things like this only get better with 2 things:
1. better tactics
2. better eq.
option no.2 is not exactly available in a pug heroic.
sure option no.1 is available but here is the problem: you are in a pug with 3-4 other strangers, no voice. you have to type everything to them. sure some will get it, some bother, some have the nerves, stamina and time to wait till everyone gets it and so on. but in reality it's not that easy. how many times someone wants to do it one way and someone else has "a better idea"? how many times rude people just "don't have time" to wait around and so on?

my point is: "don't stand in fire, interupt X" is much easier to understand and get across to other people then a complicated tactic designed to improve dps to 3-4 complete strangers.

guild runs won't have these kind of problems. but they won't have LOD buff either. Important game mechanics that if you ignore will wipe you will still be there even with LOD buff.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby halabar » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:06 pm

PsiVen wrote:
halabar wrote:I would imagine Blizz is looking at the numbers and seeing the thousands of failed heroics and all the tanks and healers that bail after one wipe, and sees that something needed to be done.


I'm sure that is their conclusion, but my position is that something should be done about the folks that leave after one wipe...


A side rant here about tanks.

Last night going into H TotT, we had FOUR tanks leave in succession before we even made the first pull, without a word from any of them (and one healer for good measure). I have to sit in que for 45 minutes and THEN beg a tank to stay?? arrrgghhh.... And almost always it's a tank leaving after the first wipe. Blame the healer or dps and bail.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Blackharon » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:42 pm

That's not limited to roics either.

Running my baby lock through BRC. We get to whathisname, the one that you need to put in the pillar of fire for a few seconds at a time. 4 tanks in succession wanted to tank him inside the fire for the whole duration.

All 4 blamed the healer then quit the group.

Oblivious people are always oblivious, and 5% more HP won't fix the stupid.
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Re: Luck of the Draw buffed.

Postby Aanar » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:40 pm

I have to confess, I'm one of those healers that often bails as soon as I've stayed long enough to not get the deserter debuff. After a few trash packs and especially the 1st boss, it's usually pretty aparent if it's going to be a smooth run or a long and painful one full of wipes and low dps and probably won't be able to beat the last boss anyway.

I can imagine it's frustrating as dps to have your tank/healer bail, but for them re-queing really is the best option. Usually the bads have a 40+ min timer to vote-kick them. Or they have a few guildies to block any attempt at a vote anyway.

I don't know how you'd fix it. Maybe reduce the vote-kick requirements to 0 minutes and one vote for anyone that fails a mechanic for the 2nd time?
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