You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Chunes » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:11 pm

I think another dimension to the hardcore vs. casual debate is seen in the attitudes of the raiders in question.

Hardcores generally:
- know the fight very well before ever having attempted it
- have every single thing that will enhance their performance ready at raid start
- are eager to start and ready 20-30 min in advance of the raid
- know when a group is geared enough to down a progression boss and prefer to spend time wiping, rather than farming easier bosses for more gear to make the encounter easier

Casuals generally:
- wait for the raid leader to describe the fight to them
- might have consumables, but generally rely on others to provide them and or don't use them at all
- generally log right as the raid starts and then take a few minutes getting to the zone or requesting summons
- prefer to go farm easier content in order to ease the progression of new boss kills


Both scenarios are full of generalizations, but there is an internal, player-level component to the casual vs. hardcore debate. My 10man group is about 70% casual-leaning and 30% hardcore leaning. There are some overlaps though. Everyone has consumables farmed, many usually research fights, but the real argument comes when I or one of the other more "hardcore" raiders suggests that we actually extend a raid to get as much time on nef as possible, rather than clearing the first few bosses for hopes of gear dropping. This is honestly my biggest criticism of some of my group's raiders, that they would rather get more shinies than establish competitive progression.
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby snoweagle » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:22 pm

Chunes wrote:competitive progression


There's a whole dimension right there...
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Rachmaninoff » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:50 pm

is it me or do these kind of topics keep coming back like zombies?
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Arjuna » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:53 pm

I don't have time to raid a lot nowadays, but when I do, I want to have 9 other people who are as serious about it as I am...

I am casual when it comes to the quantity, but not the quality of the raiding...
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Badenhawk » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:09 pm

They seem to pop up at both the start and the end of each expac when people are either a) just hit 85, looking for the next challenge in the game and analysing whether the guild they're in is going to satisfy that need; or b) wondering 18 months down the road why the same people are turning up for the same raid and wiping on the same boss and wondering what's keeping them playing.

My advice to the OP - find or group with a bunch of like-minded players and form your own guild based on a shared understanding of how much raiding you want to do and how committed each person is in terms of learning fights, bringing/supplying consumables etc. That way you're not trying to fit in with someone else's view of the world. If you have RL friends that play or friends you've made in game that could be persuaded to join, this is probably the best option as Halabar suggested - if you're concerned about being treated like a number, you need something that binds you together other than simply turning up at the GM/RL's behest. At least if you form your own you get to define how serious the guild is, because no guild is going to fit into a cookie-cutter definition of hardcore vs semi-hardcore vs casual.
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby sally » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:12 pm

I'd like to think of my current guild as "casually hardcore" or however you'd like to put it.

We raid about two or three days a week (five raids a week are posted, none are mandatory), three hours a raid (20.00-23.00).
It is however mandatory to be fully enchanted with flasks, potions and buff food brought along with you. You should have read up on each fight before-hand and you should know your class/role inside and out.

The general concept of it all is pretty much "we don't raid much, but we raid good", this because most people in the guild have families, jobs, and other time consuming things on their schedules - but still want to raid with a competent bunch of people.

I've been in the guild since early WotLK, but I think it's been around since BC launch. It is however built around a core of friends (and we're all swedish, so it's not too far to meet up for a drink every once in a while) which may be why it's survived for so long.

We're doing pretty good so far with 9/12 bosses down currently running 10-mans!
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Sànguinius » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:17 pm

Nikachelle wrote:Define quasi and semi hardcore please. It means a different thing to each person.


To give an example I'll post two guilds I was in.

When I first started tanking it was in a casual guild. This was the type of a guild that was a bunch of friends who met up in the game and got into Kara. We did pretty much only kara, but had a great time throughout the experience. We tried ZA and pugged with bigger guilds Gruul and Mags, but for the most part it was Kara. This was a pretty cool guild and I was in it for the majority of the time of BC and left it during the start of wrath due to some bad drama that occurred. I still talk to these guys in vent, and actually do have a few of my alts in their guild to this day.

So this is the type of casual I am speaking of.

A hardcore guild was near the end of wrath and my career as an alliance paladin. I got into this guild that had been around for roughly a year and was progression based. I was literally a number to them and nothing more. I did past my two week trial in roughly one week (/flex) but for the most part they didn't care about my existence. I actually had not been in vent for an entire raid as one of their tanks. I spent the entire time outside of their vent just to see if they noticed. And to no avail.

This is the type of hardcore I experienced.


I want something in the middle. I want a guild where people take the time and effort to learn their classes and be good at them. Get gear, know what they want to get and where to get it if possible. The big thing I want is a person who is knowledgeable enough to gear, gem, play well, but doesn't have such a big prideful attitude that it makes them unpleasant people to be around. If I could have nine such raiders, nothing in cataclysm would be out of the reach of a raid I lead.

You know and I really did try and make this happen with the people I mentioned in the first guild experience (Somehow they joined under a new guild I made after I left a rather hubris GM in another guild. It's a long story...) but they pushed away. I then tried to lead a smaller guild of people with my ex who were knowledgeable and wanted to raid and get stuff done. And heck some even read the stuff I showed them and applied it! Then the ex went bat shit crazy and that went down the drain.

The problem with my is, I have been burned several times by those bigger and more... umm pompous shall we say, guilds but find myself miserable in casuals. So I wonder if there is such a way for a guild to be in between these two extremes?

I think that... friends and forming a guild will be the only way it will work. But with cataclysm here and the influx of rather bad pugs, I am very worried about the prospect of finding and keeping good and clever players, who aren't too far over the extreme. Now that isn't saying I don't like casuals or I don't feel that the "hardcores" are justified. I just don't want to play that way or log onto WoW that way. Just my personal preference. Anyways I find myself rambling...
And that's exactly why I asked what "semi-hardcore" means to the OP. Because killing 11/12 hc ICC 10 in the last month of Wrath (with a 30% buff and the removal of ICC radiance) is so very far from semi-hardcore.


Try bragging about getting 12/12 normal ICC two weeks before cata hits. With ICC 25 geared tanks. <3 the ex.
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Fetzie » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:52 pm

my definitions:

Hardcore means the kind of guild that expects you to be online at the instance the second the servers go online after a new patch and to get a doctor's note if you would otherwise need to work to keep their server/region/world ranking. you are expected to play perfectly, have zero lags and mistake tolerance is low to non-existent. They raid from 11 am through to 3 am when progressing, but then drop down to a 4 hour raiding week when everything is on farm.

Semi-hardcore are those that realise that WoW is not more important than everything else, and start their raids accordingly. They might spend the same amount of time raiding as the "hardcore" bunch, but this time is spread out over the 3-4 month patch cycle instead of 3-4 weeks. Mistake tolerance is much more prevalent, as the pressure of losing ranking simply is not there, however the raid wants to be the best it can. Most serious raiding guilds would fall into this category.

Semi-casual guilds have a raiding schedule, but only maybe raid once or twice a week. They would have a larger roster due to quite a few people not being able to make every raid.

casual guild raid spontaneously, they don't really have a fixed roster of sorts and take whoever is online at the time.

bad guilds (not to be confused with casuals) bash their heads against brick walls until the content is nerfed to oblivion and then try to brute force the encounters. for example the guilds that managed to kill the lich king on ten man normal with the 30% buff and cataclysm talents and spells.
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Vort » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:08 pm

From my experience in Vanilla with NA, the way in which they raided was purely business. You log on at the exact time, bring exactly what you need or you get replaced with someone who did bring the right stuff, you sit outside and wait to be called in if you are needed, you perform or you get removed from the raid or guild removed, once the raid is called you are free to do what you want. Most of the time after the raid was called, people just split off into their channels in clusters of 2-5 people per channel. This was what Hardcore was to me, the raiding experience was purely a job and whatever you did outside of those 6 hours was entirely up to you and the guild didn't care so long as you show up at the next raid ready to do it all again. Not to say there weren't plenty of funny folks in NA but as soon as it was raid time, you better drop that smile and put on your robe and wizard hat because it's time to fireball stuff.
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Teranoid » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:20 pm

Badenhawk wrote:They seem to pop up at both the start and the end of each expac when people are either a) just hit 85, looking for the next challenge in the game and analysing whether the guild they're in is going to satisfy that need; or b) wondering 18 months down the road why the same people are turning up for the same raid and wiping on the same boss and wondering what's keeping them playing.


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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Brekkie » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:17 am

99.99% of WoW players I have met define their own guild as "casual-hardcore". Sometimes they throw random extra meaningless adjectives in as well, i.e. "semi-quasi-casual-serious-fun loving-moderate-quixotic-hardcore"

In all cases, the labels are absolutely worthless.
Stop worrying about labels. Be a good scientist and define the variables that are important to you in concrete terms.
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Jonlo » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:59 am

Brekkie wrote:99.99% of WoW players I have met define their own guild as "casual-hardcore". Sometimes they throw random extra meaningless adjectives in as well, i.e. "semi-quasi-casual-serious-fun loving-moderate-quixotic-hardcore"

In all cases, the labels are absolutely worthless.
Stop worrying about labels. Be a good scientist and define the variables that are important to you in concrete terms.


We define ourselves as a guild that wants to push progression, raids 5 nights a week, and wants all the server firsts to ourselves.
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Brekkie » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:45 am

Need a ret paladin that's been out of things for about a year?
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby halabar » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:06 am

I think a vast number of the quasi-semi-casual-hardcores can be summed up with what I now call "elitist casual". The symptoms of "elitist casual" are...

1) They gear out their raiding toons as much as possible, either through purchases or rep if they can't get the drops.
2) Gemming and chanting will be correct, and they will have consumables
3) At least 2 professions are maxxed
4) If they don't know the fight, they've watched the vids, and ask the correct questions for what they don't know
5) They either don't have the consistent time to devote to hardcore raiding, or have tired of the demands of the true hardcores.
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Re: You're quasi-hardcore, you are semi-hardcore...

Postby Njall » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:11 am

halabar wrote:I think a vast number of the quasi-semi-casual-hardcores can be summed up with what I now call "elitist casual". The symptoms of "elitist casual" are...


...guilty as charged, m'lud.
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