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Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

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Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby koriolis » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:24 am

So I'm currently using the "standard" 0/31/10 spec for my Main spec, and 2/31/8 for my Off-Spec, although I tend to stick to my main spec because I like having Divine Guardian to pop for some fights with high AOE damage.

After being away from the game for roughly a month (stopped a day or two after Cata launch and just came back last week), and seeing how the dungeons are, I'm thinking dropping a point of Pursuit of Justice to go 2/2 in Guarded by the Light for that extra shield; I noticed quite a few situations last night in regular Halls of Origination and Grim Batol (my first time in either - luckily it was a Guild run or I probably would have been kicked for that reason alone, unless the community attitude changed a great deal from WOTLK) where I would have died if not for Eternal Glory proccing and giving me a second WoG.

Do you think this would be worth it? Pursuit is nice and all but it doesn't really scream "must-have" talent, while Guarded on the other hand DOES.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby Gaxby » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:43 am

Why don't you just move 1 point from Reckoning to the second point in GbtL? That way you'll have a standard WoG/raiding spec. I feel Pursuit of Justice is one of those talents that you have it or you don't (like Sacred Duty). Plus, it's a good utility talent as well.

See Theck's 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby koriolis » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:53 am

I never thought of that! Thanks, I'll check out Theck's thread.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby Levantine » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:37 am

Just putting it out there that the 'standard' build steals a point from Grand Crusader, not Reckoning. Reckoning is a better threat talent than GC point for point and it would make very little sense to take points out of it over GC.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:48 am

You could flip a coin to pick which one you give up. I currently run 1/2 Reck and 2/2 GC, just because there are enough situations where having AS available earlier is useful, either for extra 3-target damage or for an extra interrupt. Reckoning has the advantage of being better threat per point and triggering more SoI and Weapon enchant procs.

Once 4.0.6 goes live and we get Rebuke, I'll probably go back to 2/2 Reck and 1/2 GC.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby Gaxby » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:52 am

Not to mention Reckoning only procs when you're blocking damage, so if you're OT on let's say Cho'gall, Reckoning does lose its value and an unglyphed AS will be more ideal for Conversion and Tentacles.

I will probably drop GC too once we get Rebuke for 2/2 Reckoning when I'm MTing, but wouldn't 1/2 in SotP be more threat/dps than 1/2 GC (SoT is recieving a buff in 4.0.6, but I doubt SotP will stronger Rule of Law or Reckoning)?
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:30 am

SotP does nothing if you're using Seal of Insight. Grand Crusader has the advantage of providing DPS regardless of seal or rotation choice. For WoG rotations, I wouldn't be surprised if it's even better point-for-point than Reckoning, because you can safely prioritize AS over Judgement. And there's also the added benefit GC brings to AoE situations to consider.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby Linkie » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:45 am

Is no one else taking a point out of Sacred Duty for it? I personally find myself using WoG so much I get the feeling Sacred Duty doesn't benefit me that much.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby Gaxby » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

theckhd wrote:SotP does nothing if you're using Seal of Insight.


Can you also use that logic to say "Sacred Duty does nothing if you're using Word of Glory"? Even though threat is a joke after the 30 seconds mark and is manageable, without SoT, threat of other DPS players will slowly creep up. I'm starting to realize a pattern of if I keep SoT up throughout the fight, I would never have to use SotR again past the 30 seconds mark so I can always use WoG. However, if I switch to SoI after the first 30 seconds, Omen will show that other players' threat is slowly creeping up and you have to use your 3 Holy Powers on SotR instead of self healing.

My point of contention is: using SoT without switching to SoI will allow you WoG all the time after 30 seconds while switching to SoI requires you to waste 3 holy powers on SotR to push back the 2nd highest threat lead later down the road when your TPS drops without SoT.

theckhd wrote:Grand Crusader has the advantage of providing DPS regardless of seal or rotation choice. For WoG rotations, I wouldn't be surprised if it's even better point-for-point than Reckoning, because you can safely prioritize AS over Judgement. And there's also the added benefit GC brings to AoE situations to consider.


I've been thinking that too. Perhaps a new rotation is in order, but more testing will tell. Dust off your MATLAB Theck! :D
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:21 am

Gaxby wrote:
theckhd wrote:SotP does nothing if you're using Seal of Insight.


Can you also use that logic to say "Sacred Duty does nothing if you're using Word of Glory"?

Sure, if you want to. I still use SotR on the pull though, and intermittently during the fight when it makes sense (EG proc while at full health, target switches, some burn phases, just to give a few examples). Your choices for those points are still pretty limited though - you can only move them to other threat talents, none of which are much more attractive for SoI/WoG tanking.

Gaxby wrote:Even though threat is a joke after the 30 seconds mark and is manageable, without SoT, threat of other DPS players will slowly creep up. I'm starting to realize a pattern of if I keep SoT up throughout the fight, I would never have to use SotR again past the 30 seconds mark so I can always use WoG. However, if I switch to SoI after the first 30 seconds, Omen will show that other players' threat is slowly creeping up and you have to use your 3 Holy Powers on SotR instead of self healing.

My point of contention is: using SoT without switching to SoI will allow you WoG all the time after 30 seconds while switching to SoI requires you to waste 3 holy powers on SotR to push back the 2nd highest threat lead later down the road when your TPS drops without SoT.

I haven't observed this to be the case. In most cases I've actually been starting the fight with SoI and switching to WoG after ~30 seconds, and still haven't had threat problems.

Gaxby wrote:I've been thinking that too. Perhaps a new rotation is in order, but more testing will tell. Dust off your MATLAB Theck! :D

"Dust off" would imply that I haven't been working on it continuously for the last 3 weeks....
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby Gaxby » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:44 am

theckhd wrote:"Dust off" would imply that I haven't been working on it continuously for the last 3 weeks....

theckhd wrote:NOT YET UPDATED FOR 4.0.3a @ 85
AoE Rotation Simulations

I'm just toying with you at this point. :wink:

Perhaps I'm being too vague on the term "threat problems". Here's a more descriptive analysis:

After the first 30 seconds, I usually get 3 SotR on the boss (I have to press SotR again whenever I miss). At this point, the next highest threat on Omen is at 50%, so I have a very comfortable threat lead. So for "x" slot during my 4th set of 939 I turn on SoI (so I don't delay on HoPo generation) and proceed with the WoG auto-pilot spamming for every 3 HoPo dump. Once I do this, the 2nd highest threat starts slowly creeping up from 50% to 60% to 70%, etc.

Eventually, the 2nd highest threat player will reach 90% to 95% if I continue with SoI and WoG. So when it reaches 90% is what I call the "threat problem" (perhaps a little threat paranoia). I need to regain my "comfortable" threat lead so that the DPS don't pull off me, so I can either:

1) Switch back to SoT
2) Start using SotR
3) Do both

Perhaps I misunderstand when you say "switch to WoG" as in only use WoG and never use SotR ever again after the first 30 seconds. You did say you still use SotR periodically even after the first 30 seconds and that's must where Sacred Duty still has some merit where SotP does not. Perhaps not going on WoG auto-pilot and having a good balance of WoG and SotR is what's maintaining the threat lead without having to resort to SoT (therefore invaliding the talent SotP).

If I can get a good grasp of using mixing some SotR with WoG while SoI is active, 2/2 Sacred Duty and 0/2 SotP would make very much sense. Am I correct? I presume you don't switch back and forth between SoT and SoI many times and sorely rely on SotR for threat stability despite having SoI on throughout the fight past 30 seconds.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:43 am

This sounds like the problem has a different source, to be honest. Are we talking about a situation with nearly full Vengeance (i.e. raid boss), or low Vengeance (i.e. heroic 5-mans)?

At low Veng., the symptoms you describe are very likely; for 5-mans I generally use SoT as a result (even though I use SoI/WoG glyphs). At high Veng., it all becomes irrelevant past the first 30 seconds or so, and I can use SoI/WoG exclusively without any threat concerns. In fact, most of the time I've just been starting fights with SoI.

The threat difference between SotR and WoG is unlikely to be a relevant issue. I've been adding self-healing threat to the MATLAB model, and I was a bit surprised by the result:
Code: Select all
Seal       SoT    SoT    SoT    SoT    SoI
Veng      100%   100%    30%    30%   100%
Hit/Exp   2/10   8/26   2/10   8/26   2/10
-------------------------------------------
                      Threat
SotR     55392  65463  35764  42266  51795
WoG      47958  47958  34297  34297  50138

This is with all glyphs, so it assumes you have SotR/WoG glyphed, and gives you the SoT or SoI benefit based on which seal is active. It's also the average threat of a single cast of the ability (including hit/crit, but ignoring Sacred Duty and seal procs). The raw point values at 100% vengeance are ~27k WoG (non-crit, before glyphs) and ~21k raw SotR damage (non-crit, before glyphs).

So if you're running SoI with SotR/WoG/SoI glyphs, a Word of Glory causes around 50k threat, while SotR causes around 52k. You also get about 23% extra WoGs thanks to Eternal Glory, and roughly 36% extra SotR damage from SD procs if you're following the usual rotation.

We're ignoring a bunch of factors here (WoG can't miss, but has overheal, and the extra WoG costs a GCD; SotR can miss, but can be recast immediately, which also costs a GCD) that are better addressed with the priority simulation code. But it should be enough to demonstrate that the threat difference between WoG and SotR isn't as significant as many of us thought it was.

I'd be more inclined to believe that the threat problems you're describing are due to rotation, latency, or something else we haven't thought of. If you have a parse somewhere, link it and I or one of the other parse-dissection experts can take a look and see if we can find anything.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:33 am

Are you taking into account that healing threat is spread out amongst all the mobs within aggro range? Unless that has changed (and it may have, I haven't really been keeping track of it), it could make a larger threat difference on fights with adds.

Also, if you were going to take the point from PoJ... why wouldn't you just remove both points, use a speed enchant, and put the extra point somewhere else?
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby theckhd » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:54 am

Skye1013 wrote:Are you taking into account that healing threat is spread out amongst all the mobs within aggro range? Unless that has changed (and it may have, I haven't really been keeping track of it), it could make a larger threat difference on fights with adds.

No, that's against a single target. On a fight with multiple targets, the threat would still be split. And of course, overheal will reduce the total amount of threat before division as well.
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Re: Is it worth it to go 1/2 in Pursuit for 2/2 Guarded?

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:31 am

theckhd wrote:And of course, overheal will reduce the total amount of threat before division as well.

What about the overheal bubble (GbtL)... does that produce threat? Or would all the overheals just be a non-factor in threat?
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