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[Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

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[Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:48 am

Title about says it all but I am currently running on the current stat weighting system:

Spirit >> Haste >>>>>>>>>>>>> Crit >> Mastery

However, I am trying to find out if there are any "soft cap" amounts for either Spirit or Haste that, once you hit this level, then it would be more beneficial to stop reforging Mastery and Crit into them. Elitist Jerks is strangely silent about this except to say that you have enough Spirit if you can "finish the fight not OOM." While true, this it not exactly helpful.

Since the hard GCD cap (1.0) seconds it not really achievable with the non-instant heals we cast most (Holy Light, Divine Light), what level of Haste are many Holy Paladins going with.

I am currently sitting at about 2200 Spirit and 1300 Haste having reforged on every piece if they are not Spirit/Haste pieces. What levels to other Healadins see as being "good enough" to then move onto Crit.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Levantine » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:53 am

I'll be frank. The reason that EJ is silent about a Spirit 'soft cap' is because it's completely different for every person. They're completely right in saying that once you can finish the fight not oom you have enough Spirit. The only way to figure that out is to test it yourself and see what you're comfortable with as everyone's raid is different.

There is no Haste cap and the soft-cap is unreachable to the best of my knowledge. Afaik only classes with their own large Haste buffs that stack with Heroism are capable of reaching the 1sec gcd (Moonkin Druids being the only one that springs to mind with Nature's Grace).
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:09 am

Levantine wrote:I'll be frank. The reason that EJ is silent about a Spirit 'soft cap' is because it's completely different for every person. They're completely right in saying that once you can finish the fight not oom you have enough Spirit. The only way to figure that out is to test it yourself and see what you're comfortable with as everyone's raid is different.

There is no Haste cap and the soft-cap is unreachable to the best of my knowledge. Afaik only classes with their own large Haste buffs that stack with Heroism are capable of reaching the 1sec gcd (Moonkin Druids being the only one that springs to mind with Nature's Grace).


Hmmm...I was afraid that was the answer. I see some Healadins saying that they are comfortable with 1800 Spirit and able to use those other 400 secondary points on other stats but I sit at 2200 and am often low on mana by the end of a Heroic encounter (my first raid night is tonight of Cata).

So, Blizzard may have actually succeeded in creating a spec where not only is there no rotation, but also there is no set gearing pattern to follow. Sure, Spirit is better than Haste is better than Crit/Mastery but by how much and the exact ratios are open to interpertation.

Better in some way, more uncertain in others.

Thanks for the answer.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Sagedin » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:19 pm

Personally I try to get as much spirit as I can. This basically means going for spirit items in every slot except trinkets (although intellect is still king so higher itemlevel items without spirit can be better).

I don't think there is really any point where the other secondary stats become as valuable as spirit, as the increased mana spirit allows you to use will increase your throughput more than a similar amount of haste or crit will do (at least until you can spam divine lights without going oom).

There probably are softcaps or plateaus for haste and I really need to check those out, but they are there for more Holy Radiance ticks. Might be useful to reforge to crit if you get to such a plateau, but I doubt even then that going for crit after reaching the plateau is really better.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby rodos » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:59 pm

Sagedin wrote:I don't think there is really any point where the other secondary stats become as valuable as spirit, as the increased mana spirit allows you to use will increase your throughput more than a similar amount of haste or crit will do (at least until you can spam divine lights without going oom).

Pretty much this.
Switching a HL cast to a FoL is going to give you a lot more emergency burst than any amount of haste. Similarly being able to switch a HL into a DL is going to give a lot more throughput than any amount of crit.

And if you're in a position where you can spam DL when you need to, and end the fight with mana, then congrats, you already out-gear the content you're running.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:05 am

rodos wrote:
Sagedin wrote:I don't think there is really any point where the other secondary stats become as valuable as spirit...[snip]

Switching a HL cast to a FoL is going to give you a lot more emergency burst than any amount of haste. Similarly being able to switch a HL into a DL is going to give a lot more throughput than any amount of crit.


Ahhhh, I had not yet thought about it in this way but you are 100% correct. I was thinking in old Wrath terms that more Haste is the way to increase throughput.

But, being able to cast your expensive, high throughput spells more often is the much better, correct way to increase throughput.

Sure, do I still want to be able to cast a mass number of Holy Light spells quickly (Haste) in order to conserve mana? Yes I do. But, more mana will allow me to "ramp up" my healing when needed by using FoL and DL more than any amount of Haste will.

Thanks for the change in mindset. Just what I was looking for when I started this thread.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Mannstein » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:15 am

Sagedin wrote:I don't think there is really any point where the other secondary stats become as valuable as spirit...[snip]


I think the issue is that the "primary stats" are far above the the secondary stats in terms of item budget cost vs benefits.

With enough crit/hast you could maintain a HS/HL rotation to keep a tank "full" resorting to the DL only on the "soft enrage" times. But the crit/haste rating needed is so high that i believe that as is, when we get to T14, we are still reforging into spirit to be able to spam DL's...

P.S. Let me reforce that this is my point of View.
P.P.S. This makes me a sad panda... why can't we have very complicated stat priority, that makes your head hurt but it gives you options...
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Aanar » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:05 am

Here's a question.

Which would be better
ilvl 359 Haste/Crit item (assume crit is reforged to spirit)
or
346 Spirit/Haste one?

The 359 will have a little more int, but the 346 would get you quite a bit more spi.

Just wondering. Thanks!

My inclination is that for a weapon, the 359 wins because the haste/crit/spirit really isn't very high on a weapon and the bonus sp easily wins. But on normal armor slots, it seems a little trickier. I'm inclined to think the properly itemized 346 one would win, but it seems hard to tell.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:38 am

Aanar wrote:Here's a question.

Which would be better
ilvl 359 Haste/Crit item (assume crit is reforged to spirit)
or
346 Spirit/Haste one?

The 359 will have a little more int, but the 346 would get you quite a bit more spi.

Just wondering. Thanks!

My inclination is that for a weapon, the 359 wins because the haste/crit/spirit really isn't very high on a weapon and the bonus sp easily wins. But on normal armor slots, it seems a little trickier. I'm inclined to think the properly itemized 346 one would win, but it seems hard to tell.


Interesting enough, I just had that situation happen to me. I was equipped with:

Belt of Barred Clouds
Item level 346
337 Stamina
205 Intellect
150 Spirit
130 Haste rating
Blue Socket (+ 10 Haste rating socket bonus)

and what dropped from the Conclave of Winds encounter was this:

Tempest Keeper Belt of the Flashfire
Item Level 359
429 Stamina
266 Intellect
180 Haste rating
180 Critical Strike rating
Yellow Socket (+ 10 Intellect socket bonus)

After reforging the Crit to 72 Spirit (with 108 Crit left on it), my stat differential were (and going from an Int/Spirit gem to an Int/Haste gem in the gem slot to activiate socket bonus):

Stamina = + 92
Intellect = + 71
Spirit = - 98
Haste = + 60
Critical = + 180

Now, my saving grace in this exchange was that I was already sitting at 2200 Spirit so I felt that the loss of 100 Spirit in order to gain all the other stats was worth it (because I have an unscienctific notion in my mind that my bottom cap that I want to be at on Spirit is 2000).

However, if I had been at 1800 Spirit, the loss of 100 Spirit might outweight the positive gain of all the other stats. It would have been a much tricker decision.

That being said, I still plan on grinding my Ramaken rep up to Exalted so that I can purchase the Spirit/Haste 359 epic belt and have an either/or choice. This belt is obviously better short term throughput at the expense of long term endurance.

It may end up being a plan where we start building different gear sets (like tanks do) for different fights and situations. I never really had to do that before since my best output stat (Intellect/SP) was also my best regen stat (Intellect).

Now, it may be that I will keep an eye on collecting both a Spirit set as well as a non-Spirit set so that I can craft my stats better towards the type of fight we are heading towards.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Aanar » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:46 am

Thanks, Thad.

If that is pretty representative of the trade off, it seems like a poorly itemized higher ilvl will always win simply by brute force of the extra int. On 2nd thought, a 359 Mast/Crit item probably wouldn't be an upgrade over a 346 Spi/Haste one.

I was crunching numbers for my shaman's elemental set, and the upgrade from the BoE 359 chest and belt was so slight over a properly itemized 346, that for me it wasn't worth the expense (for an offset). I almost bought them thinking they were going to be a huge upgrade.

I know they were trying to simplify gearing choices a little by making primary stats (agi/str/int/sta) a little more important, but it seems like they're overemphasized. Once I took the time to figure out which socket bonsus are worth going for and which weren't, I was surprised that (at least for my elemen shaman set), in more cases than not, it's best to gem straight int. I'll be curious to crunch out numbers for resto once I can find some reliable stat weights.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:19 pm

Aanar wrote:Thanks, Thad.

If that is pretty representative of the trade off, it seems like a poorly itemized higher ilvl will always win simply by brute force of the extra int. On 2nd thought, a 359 Mast/Crit item probably wouldn't be an upgrade over a 346 Spi/Haste one.


I would agree....had the epic belt had a Mast/Crit combo, then I am pretty sure that I would have passed on it because I rate those secondary stats far, far behind Spirit and Haste. Even the extra Intellect would not have made that a good trade off.

But, I would dare say that if the up-tier item has either Spirit or Haste on it (regardless of the other stat), then it is always going to be an upgrade over a lower tier piece....even if it has the prized Spirit/Haste combo.

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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Aanar » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:46 pm

sherck wrote:I would dare say that if the up-tier item has either Spirit or Haste on it (regardless of the other stat), then it is always going to be an upgrade over a lower tier piece....even if it has the prized Spirit/Haste combo.


This seems like a pretty good rule of thumb. Thanks!
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:34 pm

I can get upto 3K casting MP5 with elixir, food and raid buffs (and like 4.3k non-casting MP5). It is nice, but I also get an MP5 benefit from the larger mana pool that Int provides. So I don't think that one needs to pursue the spirit cap. Interestingly, when I use a feast that is stam + some other stat, it always chooses intellect over spirit.

Both seal of Insight and Divine Plea work off of mana pool size, so more int = more mana recovery if you actively use those abilities.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Aanar » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:00 pm

I would argue that the addage that "if you have mana at the end of the fight that you enough spirit" is probably incorrect. Spirit and int seem far and away the best way for healers to increase throughput. More throughput means there's more fights you can do with 2 healers instead of 3 for 10 man, or that you can drop a healer or two for 25 man. The exception I could see would be encounters where you need x healers due to burst requirements but are given plenty of time to regen between them. But even then, more spirit would let you use more flash of light over divine light to increas your burst

Even in 5 man, you're first trying to meet the throughput to beat the encounter and after that you're just trying to balance efficiency vs safety. (If I'm efficient, I'll end the pack with 80%+ mana so we can move immediaetly to the next pack with little if any drinking vs if I use flash of light liberly, it's more unlikely for anyone to die, but I'll definetly have to drink and if I run oom, will only be left with HL. More spirit lets you up the safety.

As someone else said, it is kind of sad that spirit will always be much better than haste/crit/mastery until we get to the point of being able to spam the highest HP/s spell(s) like wotlk. On the one hand they did say they're trying to make gearing decisions easier for casuals to understand. But on the other, it would be nice if the int gear w/o spirit (or hit obviosuly) was more useful to healers. (And it really stinks to see your tier gear not have spirit on it) :?

I really need to replace the haste/crit cloak and neck I have on my priest. =/ I was aiming for the 359 mastery/crit neck from wildhammer, but after this thread, I'm starting to think the 346 spirit/mastery neck from justice points would be better.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Aanar » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:49 am

Aanar wrote:
sherck wrote:I would dare say that if the up-tier item has either Spirit or Haste on it (regardless of the other stat), then it is always going to be an upgrade over a lower tier piece....even if it has the prized Spirit/Haste combo.


This seems like a pretty good rule of thumb. Thanks!


I'm having some second thoughts on this. (It might hold for paladins.) I found a pretty good discussion on the priest forum for PlusHeal with quite a bit of testing. I was thinking spirit was quite a bit behind int, but for priests at least now int and spirit are close enough that they're practically equal. (Granted this is only while they're boosted in combat regen lasts till 4.0.6) It seems like it's due to the lower spell coefficients that heals have this time around so we no longer have the wotlk paradigm of maxing spell power over everything else.

Basically, I'm thinking now that all healers really really want to make sure to have spirit on all pieces such that a higher tier item w/o spirit probably isn't an upgrade especially if the lower tier is the optimal itemization (S/H for pal and sham, S/M for holy priest, not sure what druids and disc like). [Sad note: resto shaman tier 11 chest has no spirit! /boggle]

For a quick estimate when comparing gear now, I just add the int and spirit together for each item (considering gemming and reforging) to see which one is probably better. Only if the difference is close (~15 points) do I really consider if the one with less int & spirit has better secondary stats (master/haste/crit).

I notice a difference (I can be more liberal with mana and thus use flash heal occasionally, etc) if I add 200 spirit or int, but its hard to tell when when adding haste/crit/mastery. The ratings conversions are just too brutal. Well haste can be noticeable too, but I always try to remember the speed boost doesn't do anything to my hp/mp numbers.
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