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Basic aggro question

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Basic aggro question

Postby Tordan » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:13 am

How do non-attacked mob aggro tables work? Let me give you an example, we face a group of five mobs. I mark one with skull and one with cross. When I pull skull with, for instance, AS the whole group turn their attention to me. Given that my DPS friends all attack my target, what governs the aggro tables of the mobs that aren´t directly attacked? Some of my attacks will hit them also, which is a good thing, but is there a risk that they will switch to a DPS:er for the same reason? I´m hoping that my "splash" damage plus Righteous Fury keeps me at the top of their aggro table.

In short, if the DPS:ers are attacking my target, can I stick with the single target rotation and rely on "collateral aggro" to stick the other mobs to me or do I always have to do the AoE rotation? Perhaps mix?
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Gaxby » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:45 am

I believe there is a distance-based threat mechanic. I'm not too familiar with it, but basically not attacked mobs will attack the closest player in range.

Edit: Nevermind. See Proximity Aggro below.
Last edited by Gaxby on Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby lythac » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:36 am

Proximity aggro. It causes zero threat, so anything (including buffs) would make the mobs change target.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Tordan » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:42 am

Understood, so to ensure that they stay with me I need to hit them as well.

Thanks.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Chicken » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:51 am

It's not the closest person, but the person they first became 'aware' of they all go for. You can have someone stand in front of you (And thus be closer to the mobs), but they'll still go for you if you initiated the pull with a ranged attack. That's also why it's generally preferable to pull -> CC rather than to CC before mobs are pulled, as the pack will go for the person who pulled first.

Proximity aggro is really just another form of pulling in that regard. It just means you came close enough for the mobs to become aware of you without you actually doing anything to them.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Aerron » Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:53 am

Tordan wrote: but is there a risk that they will switch to a DPS:er for the same reason? I´m hoping that my "splash" damage plus Righteous Fury keeps me at the top of their aggro table.

In short, if the DPS:ers are attacking my target, can I stick with the single target rotation and rely on "collateral aggro" to stick the other mobs to me or do I always have to do the AoE rotation? Perhaps mix?


Is there a reason you wouldn't want to just use the AoE rotation? I'm just curious.

In the situation you describe above, if by "splash" damage you mean consecrate or Holy Wrath, the "splash" damage would likely over come Healing aggro, but if you have any DPS worth a damn that's going to also be doing AoE damage, they're going to rip the mob right off you after a bit.

Guess I'm just not clear on what part of the AoE rotation you're trying to avoid and why you want to avoid it.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Tordan » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:39 am

No, it's not that I'm trying to avoid AoE, I was just curious if it is needed if DPS strictly focus on my target. Will my single target rotation AoE attacks out threat the DPS AoE that hit the other mobs? If so I don't need to use my AoE rotation until, well, later :) Just curious, not looking to change anything unless the answer had been different.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Gaxby » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:49 am

Tordan wrote:No, it's not that I'm trying to avoid AoE, I was just curious if it is needed if DPS strictly focus on my target. Will my single target rotation AoE attacks out threat the DPS AoE that hit the other mobs? If so I don't need to use my AoE rotation until, well, later :) Just curious, not looking to change anything unless the answer had been different.


To be honest, I just use Hammer of the Righteous for everything in 5-man dungeons because threat is not an issue right now. I can use Crusader Strike, but it really doesn't matter. Try marking a skull if the DPS are not attacking the proper targets.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby honeypuwn » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:28 am

isnt there a reason why we have 2 "rotations", one is more efficient against a single target and the other is a multi-target one. with pugs i rarely rely on the aoe rotation alone. i want to hold em well so i constantly tab target through the pack even while using hammer of the righteous on every cd

i can see a reason to just spam crusader strike if there's a CC'd mob near but usually i just pull em a little farther away from the CC'd ones
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Mirydon » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:36 am

Tordan wrote:No, it's not that I'm trying to avoid AoE, I was just curious if it is needed if DPS strictly focus on my target. Will my single target rotation AoE attacks out threat the DPS AoE that hit the other mobs? If so I don't need to use my AoE rotation until, well, later :) Just curious, not looking to change anything unless the answer had been different.

Even if DPS focus strictly on your target, there's still the healer building aggro on the other mobs...
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby xstrykr » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:45 am

Mirydon wrote:
Tordan wrote:No, it's not that I'm trying to avoid AoE, I was just curious if it is needed if DPS strictly focus on my target. Will my single target rotation AoE attacks out threat the DPS AoE that hit the other mobs? If so I don't need to use my AoE rotation until, well, later :) Just curious, not looking to change anything unless the answer had been different.

Even if DPS focus strictly on your target, there's still the healer building aggro on the other mobs...


This. The fewer mobs that you have to hold on you, the more likely that DPS will focus on the same target. If they're not marked, (pug) DPS will inevitably NOT focus the target you're on. With two mobs being tanked, it's usually enough to just have AS and HW (and maybe Cons) take care of building threat on the second target. With three mobs being tanked, I usually start using HotR instead of CS. In the rare cases I tank 4+ mobs, I'll definitely drop an Inq'd Cons. That being said - even with a threat modifier, given the relative infrequency of the attacks on mobs other than the primary target, even if you use an AoE rotation, DPS will generally get their face eaten up when a mob that you've lost aggro on turns and bashes the DPS in because they're not focusing on your target. And I often let the DPS do that - that's their own damn fault for not focusing down a target.

Also: Even though it's slightly outdated, http://www.wowpedia.org/Threat, http://www.wowpedia.org/Threat_list, and http://www.wowpedia.org/Aggro may help clear up some of the misconceptions on threat/aggro. The TL;DR version: Anyone in combat with a mob generates threat. Healing generates threat on ALL mobs in combat; attacks generate threat based on damage done to that mob. Range only matters when you overtake the top spot (usually the tank, considered to be 100%) on the threat list: 110% for melee range and over 130% for outside melee range.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Arcand » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:04 am

Let's not exaggerate the problem of healing threat - it's generally no problem at all
unless the healer does something daft in the first couple seconds of a pull. The splash
damage from Hammer, or the threat from a single Consecration, is enough to make
healing threat irrelevant 99.9% of the time.

Healers get whomped when new adds come in unnoticed, when the tank gets disoriented,
or when you fail to hit every bad guy on the pull (which can happen due to ranged-pull
issues or trying to avoid breaking CC). There are precious few other times when a
healer gets hit, other than random-target attacks or everybody else being dead.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Koatanga » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:03 pm

Druid healers pre-hotting can cause aggro issues on the pull. Most other healing classes don't cause too much of a problem.

You can use that to advantage if your healer plays along with you. A healer standing back a bit can help you to pull caster mobs, for example. If the healer grabs aggro on them, they will come forward until they are within casting range of the healer. If you have placed yourself in that vicinity, it's easy to pick them up with splash damage.

It can also be useful to have CC pulls, provided you have enough CC to only have 3 leftover mobs. When the CC goes up, you can use Hand to grab aggro on the remainders. Also, AS is "smart" in that it doesn't hit CCd targets. You can have it "skip" something by CCing one of the targets. If M is melee and C is caster, then an arrangement of C-M-C-C is easier to pick up if you CC-pull the M. When you throw your shield, it hits all of the Cs because it skips the M (provided range between the mobs is not an issue). They all shut up and trot over to you politely.

If you have a couple of CCs and a caster or two, you can let the CC go up, then throw your shield to move the casters away from the CC. I find if I use AS first, the CCd mobs can end up a bit close to the mobs I want to kill.

If you do use the CC-pull technique for silincing separated casters with AS, it is best to not have the dazing glyph. You only have a few seconds of silence before they stop to cast again, so you want them to move as far away form the CC as possible during that time.

If you have issues with people pulling during your LoS pulls, it's likely because of a buff they put on during the pull. Your lock may decide to life-tap, your shaman might refresh his shield, etc. That should only be a problem if they are standing in the doorway or in line-of-sight of the mobs. As a security measure, I generally plop down a consecrate that the mobs would have to walk over before they can attack anyone in the party.

Just make sure your party knows what's going on, because they still think consecrate means you now have aggo and they can start with their AoE. No one got the memo that consecrate really doesn't do all that much.
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Arcand » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:06 pm

Koatanga wrote:If you do use the CC-pull technique for silincing separated casters with AS, it is best to not have the dazing glyph. You only have a few seconds of silence before they stop to cast again, so you want them to move as far away form the CC as possible during that time.


I've been seconds away from throwing out Glyph of Dazing Shield, but have always chickened out so far because

* I don't know what I'd replace it with
* The exploding elementals in Grim Batol
* Elephant-man adds, final boss in Grim Batol

...but I know I'd dearly love having those silenced casters hauling it toward me at top speed. Are you finding it works well?
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Re: Basic aggro question

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:13 pm

I believe initial facepull aggro ~ 50 threat points, which is overcome by almost anything. So when you pull 1 guy, all his buddies will get that threat level on you, but any DPS AOE or tank heals/buffs on you will generate threat (almost certainly more than 50), and can pull mobs that are not being dps'd by the tank off. Thus if there are more than 1 mob, you are obligated to use HotR at least for a while to overcome healer aggro on the other mobs. When there are more than 2 mobs I use the HotR rotation. When there are only 2 and one is under 50% health, I will sometimes switch to CS roation on the other one, as I should have a large threat lead on the first, thus allowing me to rebuild mana for the next pull.


I find one of the key risks can be buffs (especially a Beacon of Light refresh) right after the pull. Some of these spells generate significant threat at a time when the tank may not propperly have control of the mobs. When I am on my healer, I generally check beacon on the pull. Back when beacon was 1 min, this often found it expired and made me want to refresh it immediately so I could start healing my normal rotation. This would result in any untagged mobs instantly aggroing on me and ignoring whatever ground AOE the tank had laid. Now that beacon is 5mins, and I am aware of this, I am more carefull. Another way to deal with healer aggro on pull is to use DP on pull to lower the need for heals right away. The less healing a tank need upfront the less healer aggro on pull he has to compete with.


I believe that as long as you have decent hit rating so your HotR is hitting all the targets in range, it is usually enough to hold off most healer aggro. However, it is not enough to hold off determined dps. If the dps are AOEing on their own, they will eventually pull off a tank, unless the trash dies first. If the dps are focusing on different targets, HotR won't last long, and the situation may degernate into a cluster whereby the tank spends more time taunting to regain control of disparate mobs than actually tanking.

I also think, if hit rating is low, then healer aggro can become more of an issue, espeically on a fight like Halfus with his whelps where it is quite possible the healers are spamming away as the whelps become targettable. Gathering the whelps in the face of healer aggro and dps AOE without a MD or ToT can be a challenge if your HotR misses any of the whelps.
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