Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby inthedrops » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:36 pm

I would like to clarify my position:

1. For regular mode content, I am a HUGE fan of mastery. 145k health and 60% block? HELL YES!!!
2. For hardmode content, 145k health and 60% block? Good luck staying alive!

There is actually a reason for this which is completely out of our control. Unless we want to ignore all other stats that come from gear upgrades, as soon as you clear out the regular bosses, you can be assumed to have most of your upgrades (unless you're unlucky like me, but that's another story!). The upgrades at this point lack mastery. If you want 4 piece? Guess what, very little mastery.

It's not that the HM tanks are ignoring mastery, it's that it's simply not on the gear. And the reason you don't see them gemming as much mastery is because of the insane magic damage which puts intense pressure on the healers. When you consider what I'm trying to communicate, the loss of stamina for block rating were you to gem that way just doesn't feel like the right trade off anymore for heroics.

The only exception here is the Hellscream trinket, and it's not because it has mastery. It's because of it's 1 minute on-use cooldown. It's just convenient that it has an awesome stat by way of mastery for us. This should serve as an example of just how bad the magic damage is for the raid to deal with.

Incidentally, my personal (unbuffed) tradeoff if wearing two mastery trinkets and a gemming focus on mastery equates to:

145k health vs. 167k health
and
61% block vs. 48.5% block

I also lose about 2.5% avoidance with the mastery setup.

So the extreme is 22k health and ~2.5% avoidance for 12.5% block. That's a great tradeoff for regular content. Having wiped on CoW HM probably 100 times now (initially due to tank deaths but not in a long time now) I think I'm satisfied that I'm making the right decision in this case.

I'll switch to double mastery trinkets when called for and keep my gear gemmed for stam. I REALLY wish I did my TB dailies earlier. Don't be a nub like me!!
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Shathus » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:55 pm

Hrobertgar, one thing to remember from your initial comparison of the pally vs bear, the 4k HP difference isn't that big (even back then) and you're not really making the same comparison most people do in the mastery vs stamina debate. Most would argue something like a +40 mastery gem vs a 20/30 mastery/stam gem. And probably a mastery trinket vs a stam trinket. The original one you discussed is more like comparing a +20 dodge gem vs +20 crit gem, or a dodge/parry trinket vs a haste trinket.

This idea may have been covered over the posts in this thread, but I don't think that specific example holds a lot of weight in the argument.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Kihra » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:39 pm

inthedrops wrote:And the reason you don't see them gemming as much mastery is because of the insane magic damage which puts intense pressure on the healers.


This. One great example that comes to mind even on normal mode content is the shadow breaths from Onyxia and Nefarian. They can even coincide with the big Electrocute and with melee. My druid co-tank had followed an extreme Agility stacking strategy with his gear and meanwhile I had taken a more balanced approach (still doing +60 Stamina in blue and prismatic sockets, doing Mastery/Stam and Parry/Stam elsewhere). Guess who fell over dead a few times? Not me! :)

We don't really have the luxury of having multiple gear sets yet, and when I look at all of the magic damage that has to be dealt with, stacking Mastery at the expense of Stamina makes little sense to me. Completely ignoring socket bonuses and good enchants in favor of Stamina in order to stack it way beyond that magic burst threshold also makes little sense to me. Tanks that excessively stack Mastery are pigeonholing themselves into being used only in specific tanking roles.

I think the best approach is a balanced one, since you get sufficient EH to deal with burst damage while also having a decent amount of Mastery and avoidance for physical damage. Trinkets provide the remaining flexibility to bias slightly towards physical mitigation vs. Stamina for a particular fight. As Paperplate points out, though, many of the fights where you would bias towards Stamina, you end up wearing the Mastery trinket anyway for the 1 min resist CD.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:46 pm

Khira nef stuff here/ specific encounters are prob not helpful. But since you already have it here I'll comment on it. You're a paladin with glyph of Divine Protection, you should never take any damage from shocks/breath.

Not only that you should be using mastery trinket on that fight. You have 14 percent base resist with nature resist totem, then on top of that 40 percent reduced damage every shock pretty much, and even if you didn't have it for every shock your mastery hellscreams reach trinket will put you at 50 percent reduced damage taken from schools of magic. Your druid counterpart falling over and dieing has to do with class #1, and #2 his gemming/whatever choices.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby yappo » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:26 am

To bring the conversation here back on topic again. Topic being simulation.

Boss has a cyclic physical attack, as per data shown early in this thread.
Boss has a cyclic and telegraphed attack (one to three models depending on if attacks are magic and/or physical)
Boss has a cyclic magic attack.

Insert numbers for attempted damage dealt per attack. Insert number for periodicity.

Tank has a number of cooldowns. If available one is automatically burned at "low health" (oh shit moments). If available one is burned prior to a telegraphed attack.

Insert number for "low health".

Healer has a fixed (and low) mana-pool.
Healer has a zero-cost, cyclic, efficient heal.
Healer has a X%, cyclic, inefficient heal.
Healer has a cyclic mana-regeneration.

If available, healer autimatically uses an inefficient heal at "low health". If available healer automatically uses an inefficient heal to top tank up prior to a telegraphed attack if tank is below max health.

Insert number for amount healed for both types of heals. Insert number for periodicity. Insert number for X, where X is the percentage of max-mana that is drained by the inefficient heal.

Model does NOT handle softenrages based on boss-health, but that's not too hard to add. If an encounter is assumed to last for, let's say, seven minutes, the last 90 seconds could include increased damage.

If my assumptions of how a SIMULATED encounter is decently accurate, the paperdoll model above shouldn't be horribly hard to program. I'm well aware I'm not taking into account tank/healer doing the encounter "wrong", but I don't believe the simulation should take into account swimming in The Green Pool of Death.
It shouldn't take into account an incorrect usage of cooldowns either. That's why we wipe until we learn the built in periodicity and scripted events.

By flipping numbers you ought to get different scenarios. From, tank pulls and goes smoking until boss is down, to, damage dealt is so extreme that no existing gear in the game will keep ANY tank alive for more than one minute.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby lythac » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:20 am

theckhd wrote:You can't simply stack one stat and be a good tank anymore. The Wrath days of "X to the sky" are gone. Gearing has become more complicated, and I daresay more intelligent, and people need to wake up to that fact.


And people thought the removal of defense would simplify things.

We just need a reason for threat stats to become important... oh hai rebuke (10 man).
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Dem » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:20 am

Maths is fun :D

If you want an excuse to add threat, missed shield throws from low hit reduce tank effectiveness at interrupts e.g. Maloriak Arcane Storm.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Gaxby » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:38 am

theckhd wrote:They're certainly picking up mastery where they can, but they're also being careful not to drop below that "comfortable" EH threshold while they're doing it.


Out of curiousity Theck, what would be the general threshold (with the exception of certain fights) for EH and mastery in your opinion?

Digren said 150k and 80% CTC for normal and 180k and 85% CTC for heroic. He favors a heavy green mastery/stamina gemming strategy for every socket except red to increase progressively both stamina and mastery to reach the heroic threshold.

What I have been doing is stacking mastery so long as I don't fall below 150k health. I'm only 150k and change but I'm almost at the 85% CTC for heroic.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:21 am

Gaxby wrote:Out of curiousity Theck, what would be the general threshold (with the exception of certain fights) for EH and mastery in your opinion?

Digren said 150k and 80% CTC for normal and 180k and 85% CTC for heroic. He favors a heavy green mastery/stamina gemming strategy for every socket except red to increase progressively both stamina and mastery to reach the heroic threshold.

What I have been doing is stacking mastery so long as I don't fall below 150k health. I'm only 150k and change but I'm almost at the 85% CTC for heroic.


Based on what other tanks have been saying, being able to hit 180k buffed health certainly seems like a good target to hit for certain heroic modes. Again, for fights where raw physical damage is the biggest threat, you could scale that back by swapping to mastery trinkets. I don't have a good estimate for CTC, but one probably isn't necessary; you'd want it as high as possible while still being able to hit the EH threshold. I think I was around 80% with 190k HP fully buffed for (normal) Nefarian-10, which was a little heavier on the STA side than I needed to be.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Kihra » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:09 pm

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:Khira nef stuff here/ specific encounters are prob not helpful. But since you already have it here I'll comment on it. You're a paladin with glyph of Divine Protection, you should never take any damage from shocks/breath.


The breath comes faster than every 30 seconds, so even with the Tol Barad trinket and glyphed DP, you can't catch every single one. Anyway, it's just one example. Paperplate has cited others.

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:Not only that you should be using mastery trinket on that fight.


From my previous post:

Kihra wrote:...many of the fights where you would bias towards Stamina, you end up wearing the Mastery trinket anyway for the 1 min resist CD.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Sparan » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:39 pm

Maybe I'm just taking crazy pills or something, but I really don't understand all of these anecdotes about epic fail tank gib wipes on CoW or other HM's when mastery is stacked. When I cleared that boss I was far and away the most stable tank to heal on North platform and I was gemmed mastery to the gills with an average ilvl of around 351 equipped. I didn't have BH trinket or 4-piece and we weren't swapping tanks from platforms to shed stacks. It was just you and your 2 healers on North from the beginning of the fight/ultimate cycle until the next ultimate cycle. I don't mean to be incendiary, but are you sure you aren't just doing something terribly wrong? Good planning on top-offs and WoG shields combined with not using any CDs until you're over 3 or 4 stacks goes a long way. I would pocket GAK for tanking west after the ultimate, and b/w glyphed DP, AD and externals there was no issue with tank survival on north.

To distill this into some general thoughts that I have about the value of stacking mastery and its viability in endgame raiding situations:
-Pallies have the best CDs in the game right now, and so are the least susceptible to burst magic damage gibs
-Health pools north of 150k unbuffed are completely acceptable for all hardmode content (just downed Omnitron last night with 155k unbuffed in my set, and our warrior was the tank eating any and all gibs throughout the night. Aside from this I've experienced 4 other HMs; Halfus (cleared), CoW (cleared), Maloriak (cleared), Chimaeron (3% from a ditch effort at the end of last week's cycle))
-Climbing towards block cap has a good net positive return on healer mana and I've seen several instances where swapping to an equally well-geared warrior or druid tank causes wipes to raid damage b/c they take too much auto-attack damage from bosses.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Kihra » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:11 pm

Sparan wrote:Maybe I'm just taking crazy pills or something, but I really don't understand all of these anecdotes about epic fail tank gib wipes on CoW or other HM's when mastery is stacked.


I think the reality is that the difference between a balanced approach and a Mastery stacking approach is probably really small. I think on many of these encounters (because of magic damage), tanks are wearing a Stamina trinket (Symbiotic Worm or Vial) and a Mastery trinket (Mirror of Broken Images), so the only real area of swing is sockets and enchants. A balanced approach (ignoring professions) still puts Mastery on gloves and boots and Dodge on bracers, so I think really you're just talking about gem sockets. The difference from changing between Mastery/Stam gems and Mastery gems (yellow sockets) or Mastery vs. Stamina gems (prismatic sockets) is pretty small. You're going to do fine either way.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:13 pm

Sparan wrote:Maybe I'm just taking crazy pills or something

Health pools north of 150k unbuffed are completely acceptable for all hardmode content (just downed Omnitron last night with 155k unbuffed in my set


You get 23k stamina from raid buffs. You're sitting at 173-178k fully raid-buffed, which is right around the target range we're talking about. Especially since you're probably using at least one mastery trinket in that set-up.

Nobody is suggesting that you aim for 200k health. We're suggesting that with dual stam trinkets, you should be able to hit about 180k. With at least one mastery trinket, we'd be right in your ballpark of 175k.

If you'd be so kind as to share your armory, I'd be willing to bet your gemming and enchanting strategy is exactly in line with what we're suggesting too.
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby Dem » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:05 pm

Sparan wrote: I don't mean to be incendiary, but are you sure you aren't just doing something terribly wrong?


Definition of irony?

Sparan wrote: Pallies have the best CDs in the game right now, and so are the least susceptible to burst magic damage gibs


I'd be interested to see this backed up vs for example a DK.

Sparan wrote: Climbing towards block cap has a good net positive return on healer mana


There's no refund for healer mana after a fight - are they running out of mana otherwise?

Sparan wrote: Climbing towards block cap has a good net positive return on healer mana and I've seen several instances where swapping to an equally well-geared warrior or druid tank causes wipes to raid damage b/c they take too much auto-attack damage from bosses.


Are you contending that pally tanks are inherently better than warriors or druids or that skill is also an issue?
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Re: Simulation: Stamina vs Mastery

Postby inthedrops » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:06 pm

Kihra wrote:
Sparan wrote:Maybe I'm just taking crazy pills or something, but I really don't understand all of these anecdotes about epic fail tank gib wipes on CoW or other HM's when mastery is stacked.


...so the only real area of swing is sockets and enchants...


Ballpark difference is about 5k health for about 3% block when switching gems around. Obviously it all depends on your professions, and existing gear so I'm sure it can swing one way or the other a bit.

I've done it twice already :) So for me that's the rough numbers. In my case I'm a JC.
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