Calculation: Pull threat comparison

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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:18 am

econ21 wrote:Is a corollary of these results, that one should not use Divine Plea in combat to get 3 holy power? Intuitively, it seems like rather a good use of GCD but not apparently according to these numbers. Quite aside from the initial pull, I've been routinely popping DP when it is up for a double ShotR, but maybe I should just be sticking to 939?


I think the answer to this is "no, don't use SotR-DP-SotR." The reason is that SotR without a potential Sacred Duty proc simply doesn't hit hard enough to make up for the lost GCD. Even at 100% Vengeance, CS + any filler but Holy Wrath is more damage. CS + HW is still 90% of the damage, and doesn't push back your next SotR, so it's also going to be better sustained threat than double-SotRs.
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby sculder » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:05 pm

From a current perspective, I'd advise saving DP for times when you want to do a double WOG instead of a double SotR :)
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:08 pm

sculder wrote:From a current perspective, I'd advise saving DP for times when you want to do a double WOG instead of a double SotR :)


Just make sure you macro "/cancelaura Divine Plea" to WoG.
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Gaxby » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:01 am

The annoying thing is about casting Exorcism pre-pull is that 1) there's a delay and 2) some Inquisition duration is wasted. Quick question: what if the boss comes in melee range too soon? Do you just AS once and go into 939 or Judge once and go into 939 (or it doesn't really matter)? Also, doesn't Consecration deal more threat than Holy Wrath even if it is a mana sink?
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Durability » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:03 am

theckhd wrote:
sculder wrote:From a current perspective, I'd advise saving DP for times when you want to do a double WOG instead of a double SotR :)


Just make sure you macro "/cancelaura Divine Plea" to WoG.


Does the cancelaura properly go off before the WOG is cast? I'd test it myself, but the servers are down atm :(
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Gaxby » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:10 am

Durability wrote:
theckhd wrote:
sculder wrote:From a current perspective, I'd advise saving DP for times when you want to do a double WOG instead of a double SotR :)


Just make sure you macro "/cancelaura Divine Plea" to WoG.


Does the cancelaura properly go off before the WOG is cast? I'd test it myself, but the servers are down atm :(


You have to click it twice.

Press it once for Divine Plea and 3 Holy Powers. Press it again (off GCD) to cancel healing debuff. So: Press DP (0) > Press it again (0.75) > WoG (1.5).

EDIT: Back on topic: What I seem to get out of this thread is that

-You should never "Double SotR" (SotR>DP>SotR) because of no Sacred Duty proc potential.
-Using Inquisition with your 3 Holy Powers for the pull seems better than using them for SotR.
-You should delay your Avenging Wrath after your Rogue's Tricks wears off for the first 6 seconds of your 939 Rotation once engaged with the boss.
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Durability » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:32 am

Gaxby wrote:
Durability wrote:Does the cancelaura properly go off before the WOG is cast? I'd test it myself, but the servers are down atm :(


You have to click it twice.

Press it once for Divine Plea and 3 Holy Powers. Press it again (off GCD) to cancel healing debuff. So: Press DP (0) > Press it again (0.75) > WoG (1.5).


The way he phrased it made it sound like he has a macro:

/cancelaura Divine Plea
/cast Word of Glory

Rather than using a DP/Cancelaura macro and hitting it twice.
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:51 pm

Durability wrote:
theckhd wrote:
sculder wrote:From a current perspective, I'd advise saving DP for times when you want to do a double WOG instead of a double SotR :)


Just make sure you macro "/cancelaura Divine Plea" to WoG.


Does the cancelaura properly go off before the WOG is cast? I'd test it myself, but the servers are down atm :(


It should, but I will admit that I haven't tested it myself. And yes, it should only take one click because it would be macroed to WoG rather than DP.

Gaxby wrote:The annoying thing is about casting Exorcism pre-pull is that 1) there's a delay and 2) some Inquisition duration is wasted.


No the real annoying thing is that I don't have exorcism bound to a key in my prot spec, so I have next to no way to conveniently cast it on the pull. :P

What I'd really like to see added is DP-Inq-AW+J-AS-939 added to the list (basically the Exo pull w/o exo). It seems clear from this analysis that the empty GCD caused by DP isn't worth it in the sequence, so putting it first and using it on Inq seems like the best tactic. By skipping Exorcism, we gain an extra GCD worth of Inq/AW time in the primary rotation at the cost of one Exorcism.
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Jaitee » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:00 pm

theckhd wrote:
Durability wrote:
theckhd wrote:Just make sure you macro "/cancelaura Divine Plea" to WoG.


Does the cancelaura properly go off before the WOG is cast? I'd test it myself, but the servers are down atm :(


It should, but I will admit that I haven't tested it myself. And yes, it should only take one click because it would be macroed to WoG rather than DP.




tested this myself in the dozen or so DP + my macro that clears DP and casts WoG tests none of my WoGs where half strength
i prefer it this way just incase i ever need the DP mana

i know it sounds obvious (but someone is bound to do it without realizing) just make sure that you have /cancelaura divine plea before the /cast word of glory


how does the open with inq rotation fair while using HotR instead of CS (only while inq is up of course) since they are fairly close to each other damage wise before you get some vengeance iirc
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Gaxby » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:07 am

theckhd wrote:
No the real annoying thing is that I don't have exorcism bound to a key in my prot spec, so I have next to no way to conveniently cast it on the pull. :P


Not to mention when I'm chain-whoring Grim Batol, I don't like to wait 1.5 seconds of cast time before each pull. :roll:

theckhd wrote:What I'd really like to see added is DP-Inq-AW+J-AS-939 added to the list (basically the Exo pull w/o exo). It seems clear from this analysis that the empty GCD caused by DP isn't worth it in the sequence, so putting it first and using it on Inq seems like the best tactic. By skipping Exorcism, we gain an extra GCD worth of Inq/AW time in the primary rotation at the cost of one Exorcism.


I used that pull on Atramedes last night (because I can't cast Exorcism while I'm trying to position the poor blind guy to the center while trying to turn him around) with a slight alteration of AS and judging as the boss is running towards me and then popping DP-Inq as I'm strafing around to face Atramedes away. The problem happened when the rogue and I had to decide to either TotT first then I pop my Wings or vice-versa. If we skip Exorcism, popping Wings early would be wise due to no GCD lost, but wouldn't it be better to have the Rogue cast TotT on you then popping wings right before your first SotR in your first 939 rotation and get 3 SotR with SD procs with Wings up (assuming none of them missed)?

Also, wouldn't it be better to Avenger Shield first then Judge rather than Judge then Avenger Shielding? Assuming your first round of 939 after engaging is CS > Consecration > CS > Holy Wrath (assuming you used AS and Judge in range) > SotR. Since AS hits harder than Judgement and when Consecration is cast with a huge mana sink, wouldn't Judging after AS help more with mana? This is a mute point once you switch to SoI and have infinite mana from Judging, but does it make a difference?
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Faia » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:43 am

I would argue in heroics if your geared like me you with 1.8% hit and 1 expertise preglyph you will have minor aggro problems in heroics (which funnily enough I didn't have when I had 4.5% hit and 7 expertise).
Alternatively if you are chain pulling then when only the last mob is hitting you just start using an exorcism to start pulling as a small damage spike should not kill you if the healer is good enough to allow you to chain AoE pull.

During raids this is a guideline for pulls in general and you need to be flexible and would adapt to the boss rather than trying to follow things to the book, you can easily switch to seal of insight during an air phase and spam judgement to get up your mana switch back to Truth and get into a position where you can use taunt ->AW + 2 exorcisms, Avengers shield and a DP, ShotR. (during atremedes that is)

In regards to the topic at hand on static single target pull's how is hit chance (and the lack of hit / expertise) modelled within it?
I personally avoid the Inquisition starting pull just because I don't like the thought of a miss on either exorcism / Avengers shield practically (possibly in my mind) negating its benefit. (I don't have figures to back me up on that but its just from personal "feel")
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:02 am

Gaxby wrote: The problem happened when the rogue and I had to decide to either TotT first then I pop my Wings or vice-versa. If we skip Exorcism, popping Wings early would be wise due to no GCD lost, but wouldn't it be better to have the Rogue cast TotT on you then popping wings right before your first SotR in your first 939 rotation and get 3 SotR with SD procs with Wings up (assuming none of them missed)?

If you have tricks, yeah, it's almost always going to be better to use that first and follow it with AW. So I guess I should have said "DP-Inq-TotT+J-AS-939" with AW cast either right as TotT ends or right before SotR (another interesting comparison to try).

Gaxby wrote:Also, wouldn't it be better to Avenger Shield first then Judge rather than Judge then Avenger Shielding? Assuming your first round of 939 after engaging is CS > Consecration > CS > Holy Wrath (assuming you used AS and Judge in range) > SotR. Since AS hits harder than Judgement and when Consecration is cast with a huge mana sink, wouldn't Judging after AS help more with mana?

It would, but I doubt it makes much difference. The combination of DP and Judgement will probably top your mana off before you cast Consecration regardless of what order you use J and AS. I tend to lead with J out of habit, so that it's available again sooner.
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Mirydon » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:12 am

Quick note, I will update the calculations as soon as I've settled into my new home (moving this weekend) and I have updated values for 4.0.6.
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:12 am

I guess with the 4.06 changes to HoPo generation modelling this has become a lot more complex - do the original findings still hold true?
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Re: Calculation: Pull threat comparison

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:43 am

I don't think that excel will cut it anymore for this. Missed CS's make SotR much less predictable. We'll probably have to simulate the first 30 seconds of the fight a number of times to average over all realizations. That's probably easiest done in MATLAB.

The faster stacking of Censure and unreliability of SotR will probably solidify the DP+Inq pull's advantage.
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