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[25]Cho'gall

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[25]Cho'gall

Postby superworm » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:31 am

We pulled this one about 7 times last night, and successfully got to P2 twice. However there are still some issues I want to solve and I would like to hear your opinions.

1) About interrupting conversion. We used such a strategy that when there is no big trash, everyone will stack on boss and we have 2 mages using dragonbreath for interrupts, several priests using fear as backup. It worked quite well. When the big trash appears, the raid will scatter and we had some problems with interrupts here. Generally conversion can stack 4 times, sometimes even 6 times. At first we had some tank deaths due to this. Later we switched tanks and I (DK tank) will taunt the boss and tank him while others deal with trash. This way I can blow all the cooldowns to survive. However when conversion got to 6 stacks and boss used shadow's order, the raid would suffer severe damage. I know that we still need more practice and improvement, however I'm just curious how many stacks other people usually get.

2)I heard that the big trash must die within 30 seconds or something bad will happen. I know there is this festering blood ability but is the 30 seconds time correct? The first time we got to P2, 5 big adds appeared and we burned the boss to P2 while the 5th one was tanked. Then it disappeared in the transition to P2. The second time we used heroism on the pull and successfully got to P2 after the 4th add. I'm still not sure which strategy was better, i.e. whether we should use heroism on the pull to force a clear phase transition, or save the heroism for P2 burn.

3) About the small trash. I know they can be slowed, but do other kinds of CC work on them (for example, Ring of Frost)?

4) About dps composition. It seems the fight favors ranged dps. We had a frost DK, a Retadin, a Rogue and an Enhancement Shaman who suffered severe dps loss due to switching fire between the big add and the boss (they are pushing out less than 11k dps). We also had two warriors who seemed to be OK (they just charge at the big add, and jump back to the boss after the big add dies). I'm thinking of two ways of solving this: we can just let the melee dps other than warriors stick on the boss, or we switch some of them for ranged dps.

5)About P2 positioning. I heard that if the boss is tanked aganist a wall, then the eyeballs will stack at his butt, making it easier to AoE them down. I also saw several kill videos which tanked the boss at the center of the room. Which strategy is generally better in your opinion? Also, could the eyeballs be silenced? If it could, then we can use one more balance druid for solar beam.

We will practice more today and I hope we can refine our strategy as much as possible. Any suggestions will be welcome.
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Re: [25]Cho'gall

Postby Arianne » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:34 am

1) We use two groups - 1 ranged and 1 melee. Save Avenger's Shield to break out up to 2 melee folks by casting at the boss. When spread out people just need to be better. Anything above 2 stacks is going to be hard. Anything above 4 is unacceptable.

2) When we started we had 5 Corrupting Adherents spawning. The point is to get a good transition to phase 2 (after the congealed blood of the old god have been AoE'd down). Some people say that you won't have enough time if you get to 5 Corrupting Adherents, but we never had issues with that or with healer mana due to that. If you don't kill the Corrupting Adherent before the Fester Blood cast, then it gains a room wide AoE shadow nova (though honestly I've never seen this so I don't know if it can be interrupted or anything). It's important to put melee on the Corrupted Adherents because they're the ones with 10s interrupts to interrupt the Depravity cast. Everyone should be killing the CAs until they get low and then ranged and some melee switch back to the boss while it's moved into position.

3) I don't know about stuns or roots, but typhoon and other knock back effects work fine. It's important for all ranged to AoE them ASAP.

4) We tank phase 1 near one portal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF5pqO6GCZE), which reduces the run time for melee and increases uptime of totems and such. They need to look at their class forums for tips. We have our Ret stay on the boss due to SoT stacking problems.

5) They don't stack in any particular place, but you are cutting off half of the spawn radius, which makes them appear closer together. You can solar beam silence them AFAIK. Interrupting them is important, particularly the ones that spawn behind the MT since those will focus the MT (unless an OT goes to attack them first).
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Re: [25]Cho'gall

Postby Arkesh » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:39 am

superworm wrote:1) About interrupting conversion. We used such a strategy that when there is no big trash, everyone will stack on boss and we have 2 mages using dragonbreath for interrupts, several priests using fear as backup. It worked quite well. When the big trash appears, the raid will scatter and we had some problems with interrupts here. Generally conversion can stack 4 times, sometimes even 6 times. At first we had some tank deaths due to this. Later we switched tanks and I (DK tank) will taunt the boss and tank him while others deal with trash. This way I can blow all the cooldowns to survive. However when conversion got to 6 stacks and boss used shadow's order, the raid would suffer severe damage. I know that we still need more practice and improvement, however I'm just curious how many stacks other people usually get.


We also did it a'la marrowgar and used our shadowpriest for the interrupt. When spread we just stuck to "Ranged deal with Ranged and melee deal with melee." It worked kinda, I'm convinced half of our melee don't use name plates, good name plates make this trivial. Don't think we ever got more than 2 stacks and that was only cause the melee weren't playing with nameplates.

superworm wrote:2)I heard that the big trash must die within 30 seconds or something bad will happen. I know there is this festering blood ability but is the 30 seconds time correct? The first time we got to P2, 5 big adds appeared and we burned the boss to P2 while the 5th one was tanked. Then it disappeared in the transition to P2. The second time we used heroism on the pull and successfully got to P2 after the 4th add. I'm still not sure which strategy was better, i.e. whether we should use heroism on the pull to force a clear phase transition, or save the heroism for P2 burn.


I think it's closer to 40 seconds and afaik the bad thing is adds will spawn from the add whether it's dead or alive (Probably wrong, but we never had to deal with it). I prefered the attempts where we used heroism just after the fourth set of bloods, it was easier not even having to think about the 5th faceless add. In the end the mages and shaman preferred it in p2 for burning the first couple sets of tentacles (but on the kill we managed to push p2 just as the 5th spawned which was lucky). For the tentacles we had one group of melee left and the other right interrupting stuff.

superworm wrote:3) About the small trash. I know they can be slowed, but do other kinds of CC work on them (for example, Ring of Frost)?


I don't see why not as they can be rooted, but we found two frost traps and a little extra distance to be enough.

superworm wrote:4) About dps composition. It seems the fight favors ranged dps. We had a frost DK, a Retadin, a Rogue and an Enhancement Shaman who suffered severe dps loss due to switching fire between the big add and the boss (they are pushing out less than 11k dps). We also had two warriors who seemed to be OK (they just charge at the big add, and jump back to the boss after the big add dies). I'm thinking of two ways of solving this: we can just let the melee dps other than warriors stick on the boss, or we switch some of them for ranged dps.


We were close to a 50/50 ranged/melee split with melee switching. Didn't really have any problems, faceless one's could've died a tad quicker, but it was nothing major. We did have melee sticking around to help aoe adds after the 3rd and 4th faceless. Can't say we had any real problems with dps cause of the switching.

superworm wrote:5)About P2 positioning. I heard that if the boss is tanked aganist a wall, then the eyeballs will stack at his butt, making it easier to AoE them down. I also saw several kill videos which tanked the boss at the center of the room. Which strategy is generally better in your opinion? Also, could the eyeballs be silenced? If it could, then we can use one more balance druid for solar beam.


It helps group them up more, but the don't all magically stand behind the boss, we had some spawn on us, maybe I could've gotten the boss closer to the wall, but in general it just reduces the distance melee need to run. Solar beams don't seem to work, I'm pretty sure at 7:49 in our kill video that it's the melee interrupting and not the solar beam. Could be wrong however.

Hope some of this rambling helps, best of luck.
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Re: [25]Cho'gall

Postby inthedrops » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:11 pm

4 to 6 stacks of worship is far too many. Fix that problem first and foremost. 2 stacks is probably about "normal". If you're getting 4 on any regular basis then that has to be resolved. I can understand it happening on occasion when the big add is up but that still shouldn't be frequent at all.

Tanking him against the wall works well imho. However do be aware of timing with the fireballs (if he has that ability). Wait until the fireballs go out BEFORE moving him against the wall. Otherwise it's possible to trap you and your entire melee group in fire.
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Re: [25]Cho'gall

Postby Faia » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:59 pm

We use the same strategy in 10 man as 25 man. As I'm tired I cant remember the names of things (not that it matters) so excuse the silly names of things though I am sure you understand if you have been doing this fight.

Tanks:
**Phase 1**
-MainTank - Tank near near the middle of the room and slowly move him closer to his throne after each "big add".
-Offtank - Assist interrupting/healing

-Maintank pulls boss and tanks till he gets the debuff then offtank tanks boss and maintank grabs the add.
-Tank and kill "big add" near or at bottom of the stairs at entrance to the room or where there is space to not stand in the black puddle.
-When "big add" dies maintank assists interrupting until offtank gets the debuff where upon maintank retakes the boss.
-Rinse repeat for phase 1.

**Phase 2**
-Whoever has no "debuff" tanks the boss and moves him to any corner after phase 2 starts. The other tank helps interrupting "eye lazers" and assists healing while being ready to tank boss when needed.


Everyone else:
**Phase 1**
-No Adds up: Everyone stack behind boss, everyone interrupt mind controls including healers only thing we try to avoid using is fear except in an emergency.
-When "big add" spawns, healers / range spread out and all dps nuke the add.
-When "big add" dies melee target and stack behind boss, range nuke boss while preparing to nuke "little adds"
-Rinse repeat for phase 1.

**Phase 2**
-While tank moves boss to corner all dps nuke ANY "eye lazers".
-Everyone except tanks stack behind boss, ranged nuke the "eye lazers" behind him and melee the ones on the tank / close to the boss then go back to the boss. Everyone interrupts when they can.
-Healers spam heals etc.
-Blood lust at 15-20% during this phase.


**Phase 3**
-Loot.

Notes:
*- Arcane torrent is such an OP ability here its unreal due to being an aoe instant cast interrupt off the global cooldown.
- In phase 1 after 4 "big adds" we just tunnel vision the boss and have whoever is offtanking + 1 reliable interrupter pickup the add while just forcing phase 2 to allow up to skip the extra wave of "little adds".
*-Worship buff - I tend to react differently according to the stack count.
-- 1-2 stacks with my current gear though if I see my health go to 50-75% at this point I tend to use one of my trinkets trinket or divine protection to make it easier on the healers but its not a requirement I find and if I feel comfortable with my health I will just save the cooldown.
-- 3-4 stacks I use a trinket and divine protection if I have both on cooldown like 90% of the time or whatever is available.
-- 4-6 stacks I use GoAK if I drop below 60% if it happens again then I use whatever cooldowns I have available and prepare to complain in vent after the attempt.


The thing we most have trouble with is the stupid stuff like standing in fire the void crash ability (purple swirly thing) as people wont move from it and take too much corrupted blood stacks which when combined with people walking in fire and doing other stupid stuff like not interrupting "eye lazers" it causes phase 2 wipes.
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Re: [25]Cho'gall

Postby Kaory » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:59 am

I'll write how we are killing it every cd.

1 phase.
War tank starts and tanks every BIG add.
Arcane torrent is op also I'm trying to have free shield to throw. Sometimes we are failing to interrupt and boss have 6 stacks. This is hard, but raid wall, aura mastery will handle it.
Every dps exept 2 retpalas and cat damages BIG add.
On spawn 4th add we all are dpsing boss to make transition to next phase before blood cast.

2 phase.
Bloodlust immediately. Loot.

I think in 25 men this fight easier than 10.
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Re: [25]Cho'gall

Postby superworm » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:27 am

Thank you guys for your replies. We have successfully downed the boss. After more practice, conversion interrupts got better. Shadow's order seems to be the major raid damage in P1 and we rotate PW: barrier and Aura Mastery for that.
One thing that delayed our kill somehow is that someone would fail dodging fire and shadow crash in P1, and they would get to high corruption early. And we had someone who would vomit on the raid in P2. It was annoying because people were busy and we didn't find a way to figure out exactly who was playing badly, or we could have switched them out to save time.

We used the strategy to tank the boss against the wall. In P2 we let DKs use AotD, however it looked like the ghouls' taunt didn't work on the eyeballs.
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Re: [25]Cho'gall

Postby fudomyou » Thu May 19, 2011 2:29 pm

Resurrecting an old thread to ask: for a guild that's been doing 10man for months, what're the major differences between 10-man and 25?

I know these already:
- More add health
- 10 tentacles instead of 4
- More MCs

But looking at old guides, they seem to disagree on the details. Are there 4 bloods per pool or 5? Are there 3 worshippers or 5?

Thanks!
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