4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Get help with your character's gear

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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Axxl » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:56 am

Thanks a lot for the fast and clear response Digren & yappo.

I completely understand your perspective, when I'm tanking raid bosses and I look at Omen halfway through the fight i see myself at 4million threat and the next dps at around 2.5, this being on a boss where DPS hardly has anything else to do, you don't wanna know what it looks like when DPS has to do adds, etc...

I'm definetly going to reforge now and get my survivabilty alot higher, I've had my healers complain from time to time that I go down like a sack of potatoes (strangely enough most times on trash), you explained me know how this comes.

I thank you for your enlightening post and I will keep following your guide through the evolution of WoW in the Cataclysm patch!

Greetings,
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:37 am

Digren wrote:Jesus yappo you're gonna be block capped at T11 without setting foot in a raid.

Considered the old agility enchant to cloak? I think it's worth like 16 dodge rating equivalent.


I HAVE thought about it, but 16 dodge-rating probably reduces long-time incoming damage less than 250 armour. I'm aiming for the lowest possible damage taken over time, so hypothetical trinkets at 4k armour each would see me remove mastery trinkets from the equation.

Anyway, I think 90% CTC is perfectly doable pre-raid.

Ahh, thought you were going for maximum combat table coverage for smoothest damage intake, which is different from lowest damage intake.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Gaxby » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:20 pm

How often is the statement Mastery/Avoidance > Mastery/Threat OR Avoidance/Avoidance > Avoidance/Threat true (given equal item levels)? For people like me who can't do the math before the roll timer expires (not to mention factoring diminishing returns/gem sockets), what's a good rule of thumb when comparing gear when rolling? Is there a super quick formula?
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:54 pm

Gaxby wrote:How often is the statement Mastery/Avoidance > Mastery/Threat OR Avoidance/Avoidance > Avoidance/Threat true (given equal item levels)? For people like me who can't do the math before the roll timer expires (not to mention factoring diminishing returns/gem sockets), what's a good rule of thumb when comparing gear when rolling? Is there a super quick formula?

With the numbers I'm using, you'd have to calculate:

1 x Mastery + 0.8 x Avoidance

1 x Mastery + 0.4 x 0.8 x Threat

0.8 x 0.6 Avoidance1 + 0.4 x 1 x Avoidance1 + 0.8 * Avoidance2

0.8 x Avoidance + 0.4 x 1 x Threat

I don't have a percentage on this yet. However, I'm doing all this math ahead of time and ordering the gear as per the formula. (I also take into account stamina, armor, and gemming with socket bonuses, where the above only accounts for reforging.) Honestly I just keep my own guide up and refer to it by looking at the item order. I've kept pre-done gear lists for a decade through EQ and WoW precisely because the math is too hard to do on the fly. (Though admittedly it got pretty easy during WotLK because most only armor and stamina mattered.)
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:56 pm

Gaxby wrote:How often is the statement Mastery/Avoidance > Mastery/Threat OR Avoidance/Avoidance > Avoidance/Threat true (given equal item levels)? For people like me who can't do the math before the roll timer expires (not to mention factoring diminishing returns/gem sockets), what's a good rule of thumb when comparing gear when rolling? Is there a super quick formula?



Short answer: Always.

Long answer: Depends on your progression needs and current CTC. For example, if you hypothetically reached the 102.4, then extra mastery would be a waste. And, of course, to make you more frustrated, this is not always true, because getting extra mastery enough to reach 103.0 could enable you to reforge an item you already have, etc, etc.
Add that an item with a very minor extra mastery (together with a fairly uninteresting threat-stat) could come with a pretty huge strength-penalty. You now have to compare 25% of the strength-difference with the difference between 40% of the threat stats.


I'd personally go with the short answer when I have a roll-timer ticking away :D

And, please, do NOT set this advice in stone. Another nine months down the line we could find ourselves pumping threat-stats sky-high while collecting T13 because the new boss-fights one-shots the entire raid if a single interrupt is missed (ok, huge overstatement, but you get my point).

Edit: And Digren got me with his numbers-answer :D
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:28 pm



Have you considered the agil/mastery shoulder enchant? :D
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:48 am

fuzzygeek wrote:


Have you considered the agil/mastery shoulder enchant? :D


I did indeed throw a glance at Worldies last stunt, so, yep :D

Another two days MIGHT see me with the mastery/agil TB trink, so that should see me with another 1% block. After that my "pre-raid" gear is pretty much done as I don't want to spend another 20k gold on Soul Blade at the moment (while better than the tenderdizer it's not THAT much better).

For total mitigation (considering the content that I see, and probably the 10-man normal raids I'll eventually start wiping in, then a less than 15% from full CTC should be considered mitigation rather than RNG) I believe I should get myself a head with block-value.

I'm also thinking about the spell-dam reduction. It is after all a full reduction, and I can always swap helmets between fights.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Janlaró » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:00 pm

Is it intended that most of the slots have no numbering to see wich is better than the other?
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:58 pm

Janlaró wrote:Is it intended that most of the slots have no numbering to see wich is better than the other?

That's more a function of me being my guild's only tank, so I'm spending my time running heroics instead of updating my guide.

Slots without numbers are still in iLvl order from pre-Cata launch. Slots with numbers have been ranked according to what we actually know now about how gear works.

The best items are the highest possible iLvl with mastery and either dodge or parry rating. The numbered order is just a quick-reference way to find these, and help sorting between lesser items if you have one and a different one drops.

Thanks!
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby koriolis » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:16 am

I have to thank you for posting this. I'm returning to WoW after about a month or so off due to a new job a few days after Cataclysm came out; I was an endgame raider at the end of WOTLK but I feel like I'm coming back blind as to what's good or bad or what an "ideal" gear set I should be shooting for would be. Thanks to this guide, I'm a little more confident that I'll be doing things properly as I level to 85 and then gear up for raiding.

Just so I'm 100% clear, as I came from the end days of Wrath where the progression was fresh 80 -> regular ToC/FoS/PoS/HoR -> Grind Heroics nonstop -> Raiding, the way this is supposed to work is like this:

1) Hit 85 and have a mix of 81-84 dungeon drops, 83/84 quest greens and/or crafted gear (Stage 1: Fresh 85)
2) Do level 85 quests/regular dungeons/reputation to get all (or close to all?) iLevel 333 gear (Stage 2: Ready for Heroics)
3) Begin chain running heroics for gear/JPs to buy 346 level gear (Stage 3: Ready for raiding), if lucky get epic BoEs crafted

Is that a correct flowsheet? I'm going to read the thread more in depth once I start playing again (although before I stopped I only managed to get to 82 so have a bit to go)
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:07 am

Yup, that's it. Though at stage two you won't need all iLvl 333 gear because you'll be able to buy some iLvl 346 gear already, depending on your saved Justice Points and what factions you can get to revered. And at stage three you'll be able to buy a few pieces of iLvl 359 gear from exalted factions, a few professions, or the auction house, so you won't need all 346 gear there.

PUGs, it seems, now use average iLvl instead of Gear Points to determine raid worthiness. Fair enough, I guess. Average 346 is necessary to get in, but with a few pieces of 359 you can tolerate a few 333s.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:24 am

Digren wrote:PUGs, it seems, now use average iLvl instead of Gear Points to determine raid worthiness.


Am I right in thinking that the character information tab average iLvl includes stuff in your bags? That's my impression (I have some PvP gear in my bags and PvE upgrades sometimes don't change my ilvl). If so, it makes it hard to check other people's ilvl for screening for PuGs. I know the armory can tell you both overall ilvl and equipped ilvl.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby lythac » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:19 am

econ21 wrote:
Digren wrote:PUGs, it seems, now use average iLvl instead of Gear Points to determine raid worthiness.


Am I right in thinking that the character information tab average iLvl includes stuff in your bags? That's my impression (I have some PvP gear in my bags and PvE upgrades sometimes don't change my ilvl). If so, it makes it hard to check other people's ilvl for screening for PuGs. I know the armory can tell you both overall ilvl and equipped ilvl.


Also the character sheet and armory show a different average ilvl for the same gear. Well it does for me and my char.

On armory I show as 343 equipped, 345 for bags/equipped and in game I show 346.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Devteck » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:34 am

Not sure if this has been said or not but with a quick search through the thread I dont see this item discussed anywhere else.

Heaving Plates of Protection you have listed as BiS for both Normal and Heroic Raider but these shoulders Heroic version do not exist in game. So would this basically make the T11 Heroic Piece BiS? Its really the only other option as I do not see many guilds handing their tanks a Heroic DPS Shoulder off Halfus first.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:17 am

Devteck wrote:Not sure if this has been said or not but with a quick search through the thread I dont see this item discussed anywhere else.

Heaving Plates of Protection you have listed as BiS for both Normal and Heroic Raider but these shoulders Heroic version do not exist in game. So would this basically make the T11 Heroic Piece BiS? Its really the only other option as I do not see many guilds handing their tanks a Heroic DPS Shoulder off Halfus first.

Oops, that's my mistake. I'm purging the non-existent BoE heroics from my list as I update my recommendations, and I missed that one. I just removed it now.

That leaves [Pauldrons of the Apocalypse] as best in slot, but it's really close between those and [Reinforced Sapphirium Shoulderguards]. It almost just comes down to the poorer color of the shoulder's gem socket. I don't consider the tier bonus in my calculations; if you plan to seek the four-piece bonus, definitely take the tier shoulders over the tier helm.

Edit: Hang on. Do the heroic [Pauldrons of the Apocalypse] not exist either? Hell.

Petrus and Vexryn both still list the heroic PotA, but both also list the heroic HPoP. Can someone in heroics better explain which, if either, of these pieces are available?
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Devteck » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:44 am

Digren wrote:
Devteck wrote:Not sure if this has been said or not but with a quick search through the thread I dont see this item discussed anywhere else.

Heaving Plates of Protection you have listed as BiS for both Normal and Heroic Raider but these shoulders Heroic version do not exist in game. So would this basically make the T11 Heroic Piece BiS? Its really the only other option as I do not see many guilds handing their tanks a Heroic DPS Shoulder off Halfus first.

Oops, that's my mistake. I'm purging the non-existent BoE heroics from my list as I update my recommendations, and I missed that one. I just removed it now.

That leaves [Pauldrons of the Apocalypse] as best in slot, but it's really close between those and [Reinforced Sapphirium Shoulderguards]. It almost just comes down to the poorer color of the shoulder's gem socket. I don't consider the tier bonus in my calculations; if you plan to seek the four-piece bonus, definitely take the tier shoulders over the tier helm.

Edit: Hang on. Do the heroic [Pauldrons of the Apocalypse] not exist either? Hell.

Petrus and Vexryn both still list the heroic PotA, but both also list the heroic HPoP. Can someone in heroics better explain which, if either, of these pieces are available?


The Heaving Plates of Protection wont exist because there is no "heroic" trash to be killed. the [Pauldrons of the Apocalypse] do exists because they are off a boss (Nefarion) its only the Heroic Trash BOE kind of like the Trash Heroic BOE in the 5man Dungeons they are non existent.

Seeing as how the 4pc would be nice for tanking and the Gem socket on both of them are the same (15 stamina i wont consider game breaking) i would say be best to pick up the T11 Heroic shoulders over the [Pauldrons of the Apocalypse] and socket w.e. gem on it and have a nice 4pc bonus.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:09 am

The way my raid works, I can pick up DPS items if I need them no problem, but it's difficult for me to get four tier tokens, so I rarely get four-piece bonuses. Different system, different benefits and flaws.

But yeah, the difference from 1 to 2 is minimal. The four-piece bonus certainly tips it in favor of the tier piece.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Doughman » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:24 pm

Dirgren, got a question for ya. Why the Don Rodrigo's Fabulous Necklace? Seems to be more of a dps neck then anything.
I get the mastery and reforging on it, but seems like there might be easier ways to get those stats out there.
Looking at some of the other BiS lists on this same forum, they don't even list the neck anywhere in there.

Just curious,
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:13 pm

Doughman wrote:Dirgren, got a question for ya. Why the Don Rodrigo's Fabulous Necklace? Seems to be more of a dps neck then anything.
I get the mastery and reforging on it, but seems like there might be easier ways to get those stats out there.
Looking at some of the other BiS lists on this same forum, they don't even list the neck anywhere in there.

Just curious,
Dough

Well, it has more mastery than is possible with any other necklace, including BiS heroic Ironstar Amulet. Then its inherent agility provides 60.9% of the dodge of dodge rating, something that the heroic Rage of Ages and regular Ironstar Amulet just can't match. It doesn't have the most stamina, but it's close.

My ratings are as follows:
Code: Select all
Item                  Sta Value   Mastery Value  Avoidance Value  Weighted Total
Ironstar Amulet (H)   322         44             256              474
Don Rod's             286         145            154              468
Neck of Strife        286         127            167              461
Rage of Ages (H)      322         143            111              457
Ironstar Amulet       286         38             226              419


I consider anything within 5 points on my weighted total line to be equal; as you can see there are gaps between numbers 1, 2, and 3, but those gaps are still very small. And yet, of these items, one of them can be acquired significantly before raiding, and it's one of the best on the list. That makes it a great item to invest money on, because you'll use it far into raiding. Hence, best in slot for non-heroic, AND well worth the money.

I dunno why it's not on other folks' lists, though I know I'm missing a few pieces that they list as well.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby johninnewport » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:55 am

What about this:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=60415/vicio ... caled-helm

Seems like an upgrade over the JP helm and with reforging its competitive with other purples.
I didnt see any other conquest point items that were this close. Thoughts?
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:51 am

johninnewport wrote:...with reforging its competitive with other purples.


You can't reforge resilience.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:50 am

I don't plan to include any resilience items on my list, but just for grins I put that one in my spreadsheet to see where it ranked. It fell just between the non-heroic Helm of the Proud and non-heroic Helm of Easeful Death - i.e. near the top end of the iLvl 346 helms, but 9th overall. If you PVP and have access to that set, you can probably run heroics or start into raids, but it's no where near as good as any raid drop (nor as good as the engineering helm).
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Magnilda » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:12 am

Just thought I'd say thanks for compiling this list, managed to get myself up to ilevel 333 just two days after reaching 85. Ran my first heroic (Deadmines) last night as well and nailed it, no wipes and I wasn't too hard to keep alive.

Thanks Digren.
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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Øtep » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:53 pm

Would it be possible to get some stats/opinions for [Buc-Zakai Choker]?

It seems to fit the mastery/reforge of some other neck pieces (e.g. [Necklace of Strife])

Cheers

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Re: 4.0.3a Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:46 am

Øtep wrote:Would it be possible to get some stats/opinions for [Buc-Zakai Choker]?

It seems to fit the mastery/reforge of some other neck pieces (e.g. [Necklace of Strife])

Cheers

Øtep



Well, the difference is 190 strength versus 190 agility. From a survivability point of view, the former is 47 parry-rating and the latter 120 dodge rating. While 70:ish avoidance-rating won't make or break your gear, it all stacks up.
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